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Why is it

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by greenbrucelee, Jul 16, 2008.

  1. greenbrucelee
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    That people who are new to IT or are wanting to get into IT do not know that certs like the MCSA, MCSE and CCNA are for people who have experience?

    Is it naivity?

    Is it that they think they will get big pay packets for their first job?

    Is it mis-information?

    When I joined CF I already knew about the MCSA and MCSE being for IT professionals and I only brought up as my IT manager had said about it, although I didn't believe him.

    I had never heard of the CCNA cert but summised that if it's do with switches etc then it must be a high level cert.

    I knew of the MCSA and MCSE when it'l have been NT based as this was the time I was at uni, so why is it that other people do not know that they are for experienced pro's?
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  2. UKDarkstar
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    UKDarkstar Terabyte Poster

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    I think the current advertising for IT careers on tv has something to do with it and there is also a "lazy" element that can't be bothered to research their new-found career.

    For true professionals (in any career) you tend to fnd that they do a lot of reading up and around their chosen subject. These are the people who get on and do well.
     
    Certifications: BA (Hons), MBCS, CITP, MInstLM, ITIL v3 Fdn, PTLLS, CELTA
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  3. craigie

    craigie Terabyte Poster

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    I think that basically they are just the most known.
     
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  4. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    Thats a good point, companies like computeach and skillstrain have a lot to answer for

    could be.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  5. Mitzs
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    Mitzs Ducktape Goddess

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    I think it is because they are new and just don't know better. MS you see in the paper or on the web all the time. Cisco here in the states, has commericals on TV. I don't belive I have ever seen comptia on tv.
     
    Certifications: Microcomputers and network specialist.
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  6. metrock 66

    metrock 66 Byte Poster

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    Have to agree with the above posts, Many training companies offer the false prospect of £30,000 to £35,000 P.A as the going rate!! if you go and train with them and complete the course which as we all know is utter bo**ocks... :)
     
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  7. Davidus

    Davidus Nibble Poster

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    True - when I approached Computeach recently (within the last two weeks), they give the impression (to start off with at least) that you can get these certs with little or no experience, but then they promise you to 'guarantee' a job placement (although they do get a bit vague at this point - and having read some threads here I understand why), so a large part of it is sadly misinformation.

    However, in my own self defence, I am aware that experience counts for a lot, and this was just one of the many little things which concerned me with this firm (but thats another story).

    Suffice to say, I went on to do some research (some might say not enough but at least I'm still researching) but at least I knew that I would possibly get the Comptia A+ without any job experience but at the end of the day, there is nothing, I repeat NOTHING, that would possibly replace job experience. A sad fact that I am attempting to redress in my own career at the present.

    Once again, as mentioned and hinted above, doing some research (ok - a lot of research) first will save a lot of disappointment later on.

    I admit that to me IT would pay better salaries, but have come to find that as with most jobs, the initial lower lever positions would to me mean a pay cut (something I'm dreading) but if the individual is serious, and wishes to train, study and learn and make a go of his career, then with a lot of hard work, the higher wages I'm sure are attainable.

    But, back to basics - research, research and when in doubt - RESEARCH.

    Davidus
     
    Certifications: EDCL (don't laugh)
    WIP: 70-536, Comptia A+
  8. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    I have never seen CISCO on TV here but there are plenty of TP adverts stating the usuall bollocks but lately I have heard lots of MS/ cisco adverts on radio :blink
     
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  9. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    Good points Davidus, research the areas you are interested in before putting in any money or effort so you are not dissapointed in the future.

    With regards to job garauntees you will usually find they come up with some excuse like "you do not live in the correct geographical area" This is their get out claus and the geographical areas probably the size of a walnut so not much chance for anyone.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  10. Luddym

    Luddym Megabyte Poster

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    I think it is important to remember that EVERYONE is new at some point.

    If you think about it, most qualifications are there to 'learn' something new, not just to add to previous experience. So I don't think it is an unfair (although wrong) conclusion to come to that you can learn these quals from no experience and progress with them in the real world.
     
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  11. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    of course everyone is new at some point, but if you are buying a car you don't just say to a dealer I'll have that one. You check it and do some research. Thats why I knew about these certs long ago (apart from compTIA) and knew that high level ones where for people that were already in the business and would prove their experience level.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  12. Cockles

    Cockles Megabyte Poster

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    I think it's all of the above mate, being in exactly the same position myself in the not too distant past

    Yes, it is naivety, as you're new to it. At first, the only information you have is via adverts that are trying to blag your money by promising these great sounding qualifications with hardly any effort (which leads on to your second two points) and possibly opinions of other people, which in any walk of life, you speak to three people, you will almost certainly get 3 different outlooks. When I first started looking into IT, a guy I know who heads up IT for a major gaming developer recommended I did a boot camp A+ training, bloody glad I didn't now.

    Yes, it is thinking you will get big pay packets, again as you are exposed to adverts that not only promise that, but also make out that making a complete career change is as easy as changing your undies. You do a bit of work sitting on your @rse at home, then all of a sudden, bosh, your earning a packet and driving a brand new Merc.

    Yes, it is misinformation, and you certainly don't need me to divulge any more into that!!!!

    The problem is, especially with something like IT, the industry is so vast it is very difficult for a newbie to take in all the information they can and make the correct assumptions as to what is correct for them. If you are new, and you chat to someone who is an old hand in the field, and they tell you you can be an MCSE in about 25 minutes and you'll be earning enough to convince the Queen to do a pole dance, you're going to believe them.

    Well, I did.........:(
     
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  13. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    Good point Cockles, not sure about getting the queen to do a pole dance though :blink:D
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
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  14. Mr Machfisto

    Mr Machfisto Nibble Poster

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    I have to say GBL I totally disagree with you here.

    People are not born IT pro's they have to work to get there. They don't just wake up and their on £60000 a year.

    I did a course with a TP and I have now quadrupled my wages.

    3 years ago I new nothing about IT and was earning a measly £12500 in a factory. I enroled with a TP and worked hard to get where I am today.

    If you are always talking negatively about IT and the qualifications their are out there, then why bother with IT in general.

    Most members on this forum talk so negatively about MCSA's or MCSE's, why not start talking positively for once and show people that IT is the way forward, rather then just talking it down all the time.

    Where I do agree that the advertising of such TP's on the TV (I never enrolled with them because I also did my research) but you have to remeber, how else would they advertise.........'enrol with us and earn a measly £10000 per year' do you think they will have any takers...............no I dont think so.

    People advertise for a reason..............to generate turnover. When you go to Tesco's why do you not buy there own brand blue label items rather than branded items.........because they don't advertise the blue label crap, they advertise the profit making items.

    Also another point while i'm on my high horse. The high end posters on this website are thanking people for buying their books as they have earned rewards, is this why they advocate self study so much??.............is this not advertising??????

    Think about it guys.
     
  15. Gingerdave

    Gingerdave Megabyte Poster

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    I think it is also the fault of companies not knowing what to look for. How many times do you see job ads with "must be MCP/MCSE" looking at a £25K a year job?

    You combine those adverts with advertisements of people like computech, Advent and the Skills train as well as boot camps and you start to understand why the MCSE has been devalued in the work place and MS have rejiged their cert structure.
     
    Certifications: A+,MCP, MCDST, VCP5 /VCP-DV 5, MCTS AD+ Net Inf 2008, MCSA 2008
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  16. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    I never said anything about people being born pro's, I just asked why do people not know why an MCSE etc is for pro's.

    Good for you Most peole are not that lucky.


    It's not negativity it's the truth all though there can be some exceptions.

    All people are saying is that having an MCSE/MSCA can do more damage than good if you have no experience.

    And yes I know what advertising is

    People on here promote self study because there are more people who are ripped off by TPs and given bad advice by them than people who have a good experience through

    Yep, you too.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  17. dmarsh

    dmarsh Terabyte Poster

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    Why not take a more legitimate training path for someone with no experience like a college course or an apprenticeship ?
     
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  18. craigie

    craigie Terabyte Poster

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    Luck has nothing to do with it, as the OP stated. If you work hard, show dedication, commitment, the right attitude and aptitude you will normally progress.
     
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  19. craigie

    craigie Terabyte Poster

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    Excellent post, rep given :)
     
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  20. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    Just because you work hard and study for your chosen career it does not mean that you will get the job, lots of people study for a career and never do the job they want to do even though they show hard work and determination to get there.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?

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