1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Why choose atheism?

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by fortch, Jun 8, 2007.

  1. fortch

    fortch Kilobyte Poster

    408
    21
    35
    First, let me say that I'm not starting this thread for aggression *or* conversion, just as an understanding. I should expect all contributors to remain civil, and maybe we can all learn something here. I know, all the mods are probably saying "UGH!" to themselves, and I apologize for giving you folks another thread to keep an eye on.

    That said, why choose atheism? To me, if non-belief is something you desire, why waste energy defending it? I came from an agnostic viewpoint, before becoming a Christian, and that (at least) seemed logical. However, most atheists I know, and I know more than a few, are very intelligent, yet controlling people. They are regular people, that for some reason, have a strong desire not to be 'fooled'. Most have an anti-group mentality, and seem to find solace in NOT conforming. Submission is almost always an issue, except for a very few things intimate to them, like children. My point here isn't to stereotype, but to study the 'why' of non-belief.

    Our world is a perfect world, at least in its design. While I love and enjoy science everyday, for me its just a tool, not an ideology. Our ecology is in harmony (when we're not mucking it up!), and the earth is an extremely dynamic place. How can you look around and not wonder about a creator? More to the point, how can you be sure, as every atheist is, that there isn't? Being sure about something that is technically immeasurable is illogical. Although the whole 'every watch has a watchmaker' is a tired analogy, it still rings a bit of truth. If the moon were a sliver out of its present orbit, there'd be no life here. If there wasn't a perfect balance of nitrogen, oxygen, and argon (among the 7 other components), then we wouldn't be here. While I can go on to debate with figures and statistics, the point of this is *not* Creationism vs. Evolution, either.

    Rather, why believe in nothing? Because man can't prove the existence of God at his command? Is it easier to live without the assumed guilt of not living life by someone else's standards, much less God's? You'd rather be less bored on Sundays? Although I believe that morality was initially programmed into us by God, humans can obfuscate anything, so where does your morality originate? I'm not talking murder here, that's not really a morality issue, since most in the animal kingdom have a sense of species survival, and self preservation. How about, for example, when you're about to do something shady (like clicking on a known illegal P2P site chock full of MP3's) .... who's on your shoulder, telling you what is right and what is not? If you don't believe that it's an issue of God, then your decision involves mainly yourself, be it desires or dislikes?

    Again, I definitely respect anyone's opinions here, so let's make it easier on the mods :biggrin
     
    Certifications: A+,Net+,Sec+,MCSA:Sec,MCSE:Sec,mASE
  2. simongrahamuk
    Honorary Member

    simongrahamuk Hmmmmmmm?

    6,199
    125
    199
    Guy's if you choose to reply to this thread please only state your views on the subject, do not challenge other peoples beliefs or ask them to defend themselves.
     
  3. BosonMichael
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

    19,136
    462
    374
    Oh yeah? I challenge that belief!!! DEFEND YOURSELF!!!! :twisted:

    (sorry, couldn't resist) :p
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  4. simongrahamuk
    Honorary Member

    simongrahamuk Hmmmmmmm?

    6,199
    125
    199
    You will be! :banned

    :tongue
     
  5. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

    5,239
    211
    236
    I consider myself an atheist.

    When I was growing up, I went to various embassy and military schools, where I was surounded by people of many different cultures and religions. Which was great.

    Then I went to a comp school and RE was all about learning about world religion - it was really interesting.

    Then I went to a public school and had Anglican religion shoved down my throat (oo-er) without any concern about my personal views.

    During my life, I have been exposed to various religions and every one of them considers themselves to be the 'right' one.

    That in itself is a paradox.

    My favorite quote is from Monty Python, and it goes something like 'there's nothing that an agnostic can't achieve if he's really not sure if he believes in anything or not.'
     
    Certifications: MCT, MCTS, i-Net+, CIW CI, Prince2, MSP, MCSD
  6. Quarky

    Quarky Byte Poster

    113
    4
    39
    Touchy subject. :D

    I'm agnostic, i believe that i don't actually know anything at all and i'm happy with that. I came to this view after reading many physics books, its quite ironic to realise that after learning so many new wonderful things that you actually know less than when you began. When you ask one question about something and supposedly get some sort of answer, the answer itself in many cases, raises more questions than the first question asked !

    I'm nowhere near intelligent enough to begin to fathom it out, i lose the plot when i hit a paradox, for example :

    Lets say that god was a man (just for examples sake) - now lets also say that god has limitless power (again, just hypothetically) - now, is it possible for god to create a rock which is so heavy that he can't lift it ?

    Either way, it imposes some sort of limit. It is these limits that make me think agnostically.

    Winds me up a treat !
     
    Certifications: A+,270,271,272 (MCDST)
    WIP: Master CIW
  7. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

    5,239
    211
    236
    By the way, for those of you who are only into IT -

    An Atheist is someone who regects the concept of 'God', or Gods.

    An Agnostic is someone who is on the fence and doesn't think there is enough evidence either way - but doesn't want to f*ck up their chances of being on the winning side should the world fall to pieces...
     
    Certifications: MCT, MCTS, i-Net+, CIW CI, Prince2, MSP, MCSD
  8. Quarky

    Quarky Byte Poster

    113
    4
    39

    LOL, too right.
     
    Certifications: A+,270,271,272 (MCDST)
    WIP: Master CIW
  9. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

    5,239
    211
    236
    Why defend any point of view? You consider it a non-belief, just because it is not *your* belief. Personally, I believe in Jean Luc Picard. Tell me I'm wrong.
    Oh, I can name a few intelligent and controlling religious types.
    Should I start with the Pope and work backwards?
    Yup, our nights out are a shambles without the messiah.
    42, mate.
    42 and a half?
    That's a good idea.
    For all we know, one of the Mods could be the second coming...
     
    Certifications: MCT, MCTS, i-Net+, CIW CI, Prince2, MSP, MCSD
  10. Sparky
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

    10,191
    299
    319
    ‘Each to their own’

    As long as someone doesn’t force their beliefs on me then I respect whatever path they want to follow. 8)
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Exchange 2007\2010
  11. fortch

    fortch Kilobyte Poster

    408
    21
    35
    Thanks for keeping things civil, fellas.

    Perhaps my tone was a bit confusing, and I certainly didn't mean to sound accusatory about atheism, but most atheists defend their non-belief. My point was simply, if you don't believe in something, why take the time to argue it as most do?

    Johnny, although I appreciate sarcasm, perhaps we should refrain from using it in this thread? You seemed to take it a bit personally, but I was only providing my observations for the atheistic friends that I have. I most certainly wasn't defining the whole, and I thought I made that perfectly clear. Perhaps not. :blink

    Like I said, being agnostic is logical. Atheism seems illogical ... how can you be sure there isn't a God? As for design, our own structure of physics, particularly with thermodynamics, shows that in things go from ORDER to DISORDER. I know my house goes from CLEAN to UNCLEAN all by itself. If I drop a bag of marbles (or a box of matches), they don't fall into a perfect stack, right? How is it that the very laws that our science is based on makes no sense when applying it to the ID theory? Think about the odds of everything that's come to exist, particularly before man could order things, and try to understand how unlikely each step of that process was. Compound that with the fact that its very much like a house of cards, with each step relying on previous steps. Incredible, and I can't see all that happening without some sort of grand design. Things fall apart, not assemble themselves, by our science.

    I may have been a bit mistaken about the evolution/creation thing -- its kind of a natural progression for this. Regardless, if nobody wants to invest time into this thread, just let it die then, and we can go back to things like me not failing 70-292 ;)
     
    Certifications: A+,Net+,Sec+,MCSA:Sec,MCSE:Sec,mASE
  12. Raffaz

    Raffaz Kebab Lover Gold Member

    2,976
    56
    184
    Im athiest, i dont believe in anything, i lost my parents at an early age so im one of them people who think if there was a god then why did he do that to me?? It doesnt matter what crap people try to get over to me, im having non of it and i never will. How can you believe in something that you have never seen? Its just complete and utter BS to me. BUT if someone has their beliefs then thats fine by me. But dont try and put them on me, what im trying to say is each to their own. End of story.
     
    Certifications: A+, MCP, MCDST, AutoCAD
    WIP: Rennovating my house
  13. stuPeas

    stuPeas Megabyte Poster

    774
    12
    76
    WOW...Where to Begin.
    First, atheism isn't something you CHOOSE, its a label other people stick to you when you decide that you "just don't believe in god". strictly (and logically) speaking "non-belief" cannot be defended, as by definition, there is NOTHING to defend (non belief=LACK OF belief and so there is literally NOTHING to defend)

    Next, I don't defend the FACT that I do not believe in a god.....I defend my RIGHT to believe what I CHOOSE. Personally I don't care one bit what others want to believe, as long as they don't try to shove their beliefs down my throat (I have never rang someones doorbell and forwarded my opinion on the creation of the earth).

    Next. I am quite happy with the fact that I don't blindly conform to others opinions and wishes. I make my own decisions based on Empirical evidence, experience, and sometimes on gut Instinct.

    Next..when you say "strong desire not to be fooled", it implies that there is a definite truth on one side of the argument or the other. Being a great believer in Empiricism and the scientific method, I have no option but to say that NOTHING can ever be PROVED one way or the other, but it seems that "believers" can never accept that they may be wrong. To me, this is just about the best example of "not being able to submit" there is!!

    I am NOT sure. But you ARE. This means that it is YOU who is Illogical because you have absolutely NO EVIDENCE in favor of a creator (You provided the ammo there, I'm almost embarrassed using this one)

    Richard Dawkins argues the creationism argument in his brilliant "best seller", The Blind Watchmaker, and if we start on this topic, then the thread would never end because neither side would admit defeat.

    You are starting to loose all credibility now. If this is what you believe then I'm wasting my time even putting my point across.
    IN fact......Bye!!!
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronic, CIW Associate (v5).
    WIP: CIW (Website Design Manager)
  14. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

    4,196
    171
    211
    well im Pagan and, generally, most live to a couple of creeds, one of which is:

    An it harm none, do as thou wilt

    i dont care a jot of you are christian, or a devil worshipper (no thats not the same as a pagan, devil worshippers still acknowledge the existence of the christian god, they just dont follow him), if you harm none, you can do what you like.

    Ill openly discuss my views, Ill even have you state that you disagree with my view and that you believe x. But i dont want to be converted, my faith isnt 'wrong' (you cant prove its wrong, i cant prove its right, acknowledge its different, since its the only thing that is categorical). I want a discussion where we can exchange ideas and beliefs and, perhaps, adapt our own beliefs based on each others arguments. If nothing else, we gain understanding and tolerance of anothers faith.
     
    Certifications: ITIL Foundation; MCTS: Visual Studio Team Foundation Server 2010, Administration
    WIP: None at present
  15. Stoney

    Stoney Megabyte Poster

    731
    23
    69
    Just because an atheist does not believe in a God, they still hold beliefs in an alternative to God and creation. We all know to well how defensive people can get when you begin to question their beliefs.
     
    Certifications: 25 + 50 metre front crawl
    WIP: MCSA - Exam 70-270
  16. fortch

    fortch Kilobyte Poster

    408
    21
    35
    Thanks Fergal, this thread was intended to be about understanding, but it is a hot topic, and many people get angry before they really comprehend. To many people substitute *my* intent for what they believe me to be about, and that's unfair. I, too, would like to understand more.

    Stu, why the angst, bro? First, it most certainly is a choice, but its cool... call it what you will, I'm no fan of labels either. That last bit was to lighten the mood a bit, but you seemed to take that personally. My bad, tone is difficult to convey on the net. Oh, and btw, don't be embarrassed -- and take all the ammo you need, because I'm not the one in a battle here :rolleyes:
     
    Certifications: A+,Net+,Sec+,MCSA:Sec,MCSE:Sec,mASE
  17. AJ

    AJ Administrator Administrator

    6,771
    102
    221
    Hey Guys

    As you will be all aware, the staff are watching this thread very closely. It is not the usual sort of subject the CF is all about.

    So, gentle reminder, keep it civil, calm and above all respect each others views. No-one is right or wrong here, just perspective.

    Thanks for your co-operation :D
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCSA (messaging), ITIL Foundation v3
    WIP: Looking at doing ..................
  18. stuPeas

    stuPeas Megabyte Poster

    774
    12
    76
    O.K. Its just that I was reading the points of you post at the same time as writing my response, and since I'm not the quickest typer in the world, when I got to the bit about people not believing in god because they don't want to be bored, I felt that I had just wasted my time. I agree, humor IS hard to get across with this type of medium.

    I would like to reiterate the sentence you hint at above. You use the argument that it is ILLOGICAL for me NOT to believe in god because there is no evidence that he does NOT exists. You MUST see the problem with this statement. In fact, its quite ironic that you use the word LOGIC in that particular argument.

    I'm not going to respond "point for point" with you because, as you said, you want to understand others perspectives (and presumably not argue over evidence).

    So, Instead I will give you my reasons for NOT being a believer in god.

    First, when I was a kid, the images that where put forward of god as a man sitting some place in the sky wearing all white and looking a bit like Santa, never made any sense to me. It was just to hard to believe, even at that age.

    Also, I was brought up in an environment where It was good to question things and find why things were as they were. Faith, for me, means just passively accepting things, even if you dont understand. I dont think this is in my nature.

    Its not that I have to see something to believe it. I will not say that our existence is "all there is" either. Quantum physicists are coming up with all kinds of weird theories at the moment that hint at multiple universes, and to be pretty blunt, there is more evidence that these theories are correct than there is to the existence of god.

    I just cant help feeling that there was a guy a couple of thousand years ago who wrote a book that someone found and let let their imagination get the better of them.

    I do believe that our existence is a fraction of what there is in...(I cant even think of a word to put next, how can I describe something that may be impossible to comprehend???)

    But....I dont believe that there is a man/woman/spirit, whatever, who sent his son to the ground to give us some rules on how to live.

    god is supposed to be ALL POWERFUL. have you ever seen this power in a form that cannot be described by another more LOGICAL explanation?? Google Occam's Razor!!!

    Even if I went for a theory that I would be more likely to believe, namely that what we think of as god is actually some kind alien being, Why would he NEED us to believe in him so much, and is he so fragile that his followers are prepared to go to war just to try to prove they are right??

    There is plenty of evidence for natural selection, but believers dismiss it out of hand. In fact, ANY evidence that does not fall under the GOD umbrella is discarded without even an attempt to understand and intelligently debate.

    This is just a Fraction of the reasons, but Ive never really thought about "why" i don't believe in the man in the sky. Its just an accumulation of evidence (that has never been forced on me) to the contrary over the years has made it impossible for me to give it any serious consideration. Also, I dont NEED a god to give me peace of mind, and to prescribe moral behavior.

    In short...Ive heard allot of things over the years that leave you thinking "mmmm...im not sure about that one", but to me, the THEORY of god (and it IS a theory, and not actually a good one), doesn't even warrant this kind of consideration. It doesn't fit with ANY knowledge that the human race has accumulated.

    By the way. This will be my last post on the topic. You said you wanted to know my reasons and I have given you but a brief overview of them. These reasons however are not up for debate as this would be a totally futile exercise that would drain both my energy and my time (Ive got an exam in London in 3 weeks for a course Ive not even done. My TP thinks that I should be able to pass, and since its "all expenses paid" then, what the heck!!!!)

    Do me a favour, and ask your god to help me pass (no disrespect meant :biggrin ).
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronic, CIW Associate (v5).
    WIP: CIW (Website Design Manager)
  19. stuPeas

    stuPeas Megabyte Poster

    774
    12
    76
    QFT :biggrin
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronic, CIW Associate (v5).
    WIP: CIW (Website Design Manager)
  20. Bluerinse
    Honorary Member

    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

    8,871
    167
    256
    I've been around on this planet a while now and to be honest as time has gone by i have become more and more agnostic.

    I was brought up as a Roman Catholic, went to Sunday school and have read much of the bible, so i am not totally ignorant of the teachings and content.

    I too had a bad start to life.. my father died in an accident when i was three. This led to much misery for my mother and family.

    So.. my mind remains open on the subject and until i find an explanation to how we came to be that sits well with my logical mind, my thoughts will not change.. and yes, i need tangible proof.

    Like others.. i totally respect other peoples beliefs and non beliefs.. each to their own.
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronics - MCSA (W2K) MCSE (W2K)

Share This Page

Loading...