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Trying Out Ubuntu 7.10

Discussion in 'Linux / Unix Discussion' started by JohnBradbury, Nov 26, 2007.

  1. JohnBradbury

    JohnBradbury Kilobyte Poster

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    Okay I decided to take another look at Linux and record my findings if anyones interested:

    First Impressions of Ubuntu - Caught on Video
     
  2. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    John,

    It appears I've badly misjudged you based upon a couple of posts. That was very even-handed and well-done. I'll be following your series with interest.

    I do have to say I'm not surprised that you're surprised though. The strides being made in Linux development are very impressive. In the time I've been using Debian it has gone from something very difficult to install to so easy it's a little scary. Kernel support for hardware has really improved too. Right now kernel releases are coming out every 2 to 3 months, and every time a new one comes out there are multiple improvements in hardware support. The only real trouble spots at this point are web cams, wireless, and ATI video cards. However, it's not all that difficult to use ndiswrapper and Windows drivers to get most wireless chips running, and with web cams more work out of the box than don't now. I would imagine that within the next year these problems will have been pretty much resolved. It's too bad the hardware manufacturers won't work with the open source community more than they do, but a lot of talent is working at reverse engineering all this stuff to get open source drivers for them.

    I do have one comment on your comments about installing software. Do you really expect to move to another OS and not have to learn something? I think that's an unreasonable expectation. And, just how much would you understand/recognize about what all packages/dependencies are installed by a Windows installer, if it showed you all dependencies, as synaptic shows you. You're just seeing things you've never seen before in Windows because Windows isn't forthcoming about what all is going into your system.

    All you would have had to do to read a little about each of the packages displayed would have been to click on each of them one at a time and a short blurb would have been displayed in the bottom right-hand window telling you what they were for.
     
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  3. AJ

    AJ Administrator Administrator

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    Just finished watching the film John and I found it to be excellent.

    Well done and I'm looking forward to seeing the others :thumbleft
     
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  4. JohnBradbury

    JohnBradbury Kilobyte Poster

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    Thank you both for your comments. I really appreciate the feedback I've received from both here and digg. It really gives me the encouragement to keep producing these and the training tutorials [when I get the spare time].

    I've been interested in learning more about Linux for a while now and every article I read is either produced by a Linux fanatic hell bend on the destruction of Microsoft or a Microsoft zombie. What I hope to achieve with this video series is an understanding of what problems a Windows user might face when thinking about a move to open source software. I also wanted to be as fair as possible.

    ffreeloader I hadn't realised about the descriptions in synaptic package manager. I think this is a good illustration of a simple mistake a newbie could make when looking at Linux. As you've said the same would be true of a new user to Windows.

    It's not that I don't want to learn about Linux. I just wanted my views to reflect what an average Windows user might think when faced with the technology and reasonable or not I think Linux will always have to fight to keep the learning curve low for Mr Joe computer user if they want to increase market share.
     
  5. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    John,

    I rarely use Synaptic as it isn't nearly as powerful as apt-get or aptitude from the bash prompt. With "apt-cache show packagename" you will be shown all the dependencies, any software conflicts, the version number, the maintainer's name and email address, a succinct description of the software package, and more.

    I guess I just will never understand a user who tries a new OS and expects to not to have learn anything. They had to learn to be able to use the OS they've been using. Why anyone would possibly think that a completely different OS would be exactly the same as what they've been using in all respects is just something I can't fathom. I guess I'd have to say if somebody is too lazy or too proud to learn anything new, then I could care less if they ever used Linux. It's not like Linux is a company that depends on profit to remain afloat, so "market share" isn't really one of its goals.

    Would I like to see MS take a good beating? You bet. Their business ethics absolutely suck, and they have harmed the consumer big time over the years with their business practices.

    Take a look at what MS is willing to sell their OS for when competing with the OLPC. $3.00. Yup. an even $3.00. What do they charge for it where they have no real competition? $200-$400. Real competition would have fostered far lower prices, much more innovation, and far better computers, but MS has squashed all competition through rather dubious means. It's time to see some justice come around and for them to fall.

    All that being said, if it takes Linux becoming Windows to dethrone MS, I'd rather see Linux stay just as it is. One set Windows OS's is bad enough.
     
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  6. JohnBradbury

    JohnBradbury Kilobyte Poster

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    Not that you're bitter :D

    Seriously though I've been quite impressed with it.

    I also agree that if you're going to us a new OS then you should learn something about it. Although I'm not sure most people care enough to go to that effort [not outside technical circles anyway].

    I know tons of people with Windows XP on their home machines and they have never learn't to use that either. It's certainly not just an attitude towards Linux.

    Second Video posted:

    http://www.johnbradbury.com/ubuntu-video-office-functionality/
     
  7. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    It's not bitterness. It's a total disgust at a company in which corruption, dishonesty, greed and ruthlessness are the daily facts of life, and have been from its inception. It's the principle of the thing.

    I'll take a look at your second installment.
     
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  8. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    The problem is, Freddie, that the average use hated having to learn what they had to learn to work in Windows. In a perfect world for them, it would just know what they wanted to do and do it. They arent interested in learning, and picking up new things. They just want it to bloody well do what they want it to do.

    Theres just no way that you are going to get people like this around on this issue. So the only way to get them to convert to Linux is to make it work just like windows in every respect they care about. At that point, for them it becomes an issue of cost, and Linux would win outright. You'd see a massive switch to Linux after that I'd wager. You can make the system as adaptable and complex as you wish, but for everything the average user cares about, it should work exactly like Windows from the moment of installation.

    If you can get that down pat, and then allow for customizations and alterations by those in the world who ARE interested, then you are going to have an OS that stands a real chance of getting the 'average user' market.

    Joel Spolsky of Joel on Software talks about this whole thing in his book. Basically, when writing a program (and it applies to an OS too), you need to adhere to the users expectations. If they expect to be able to hit CTRL+C to copy text, then your program should damn well do it. Dont expect them to learn your method of doing it, learn theirs and make your app do it that way. You can make it adaptable if you wish, but from word go thats how it should work. If Joe bloggs has to spent more than 5 minutes learning your way of doing something, they will lose interest and stick with what they know. Is windows crap compared to Linux? Maybe. But they know how to use it already. Hell, have you seen how much users whinge about having to learn how to do the same thing a slightly different way between versions of Windows? Imagine how much they are going to whinge about having to learn a completely new way of doing things.

    Linux needs to get over this 'holier than thou' attitude it has regarding the MS way of doing things if it wants to average user on the street to buy into it. This whole attitude of making people learn new ways of doing things isnt going to get them this demographic. It reserves it in the domain of those of us who are interested enough in computing, etc, to want to learn how to do things in another way.

    I havent actually taken a look at the video yet John, Im at work and havent had time. But the responses are quite positive. Ill take a look at it sometime.
     
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  9. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    Fergal,

    The attitude of "I don't care if the masses don't accept Linux" doesn't come from a "holier than thou" attitude. We've discovered something better. We spent time to learn it and have put forth effort in helping to improve it. (Even a relative noob such as me helps out with bug reports on a regular basis.) If someone else doesn't want to do that, why should we care if they don't want to learn? What is that to us?

    The more complex an OS and a computer's environment becomes, the more chance for vulnerabilities, bugs, etc.... That's one of the main reasons I want a lean OS. So what if that means I have to learn something? That doesn't bother me at all. I just don't want to compromise the security of my system to accommodate someone too lazy, or just plain unwilling, to learn. That's just shooting myself in foot. If those who are too lazy or too unwilling to learn get stuck with an insecure OS, well, that's the natural result of their own choices, which are not my problem because they are not under my control.

    Lowering standards, increasing the number of bugs in a system, lessening system security just to accommodate people who don't care seems to me to be a fools errand.
     
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  10. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    and yet Linux advocates wonder why Linux isnt getting a mainstream market?

    I'm not being funny, but you either want a share of the mainstream market, in which case you need to pander to the average user in a way that keeps them happy, whilst simultaneously allowing for adaptability and customisation on any level for the gurus, or you dont want a share of the market at all. In which case stop the community harping on about it all the time.

    You say that MS is a crock of shite, and that they are evil and everyone should stop using them, but you feel that the general public, who just want to use the PC to do what they need to do are morons who arent worthy of the Holy Grail that is Linux. Thats just a tad hypocritical in my view. Personally, id tend to lean more towards the side that steals the money from my pocket, but makes things as easy as they can for me, than the side where its 'you're not good enough to join us. piss off!'
     
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  11. WMSheep

    WMSheep Bit Poster

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    very good videos.

    I do have to say though that you were very lucky with your printer - there`s a lot of printers out there (from major manufacturers) that sadly, have limited functionality or are no better than paperweights under Linux.

    Anyway, looking forward to part 3.

    Mark
     
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  12. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    Just where did I say they aren't worthy? If they don't want to learn anything, then they are stuck with what they have. Any of us who have switched, and found something better have had to put out a lot of effort to learn something new. We earned our right to use a better, more secure system, by, not being "better" or "holier" than anyone else, just by putting forth the effort to learn. Everyone else has the same choice. You either make that choice or you don't. If you want to think that somehow makes me have an attitude that I'm superior to everyone else, well, that's your choice, but that's not how I see it. I'll help anyone who wants to learn. If they don't, well, then they made their choice.

    We all live with the consequences of our choices in life every day. Choosing one OS over another is no different. Nothing worthwhile in life comes without effort, and I can't make anyone want to put forth effort. I also don't see that it's my responsibility to bring what I use down to someone else's level. That's just plain dumb, and self-defeating. Will I help them come up to another level? Yes. There's nothing exclusionary about that at all. The only barrier to anyone is a lack of desire to learn. That's their choice, and their choice alone.
     
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  13. AJ

    AJ Administrator Administrator

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    Nice 2nd vid mate. Looking forward to the next one.
     
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  14. grim

    grim Gigabyte Poster

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    nice vid, i downloaded 7.10 last week but havent got round to installing it yet.

    grim
     
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  15. juice142

    juice142 Megabyte Poster

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    Great stuff, thanks John!

    I'm now running this in VMware on my main PC and am looking to install xubuntu on my newly acquired (and free!) little Dell latitude LS shortly. 8)

    Cheers for the heads up mate, my first time with a Linux distro and it had me up 'til all hours. Can't get the flippin' VMware power tools to work yet! :rolleyes:

    J.
     
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  16. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    I haven't tried putting Ubuntu in a VM yet, but have had to do some text based work to get VMWare tools to install when Debian in a VM using VMWare Server. Don't ask me how it came up because I can't remember. All I remember was having to execute some commands in a bash or cmd prompt inside the vm.

    Oh, that sort of reminds me. I had to call the virtual cd drive and a virtual cd which VMWare uses inside the VM. Once I did that I could run the install routine for the Tools package.
     
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  17. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    Well, John, I went to take a look at the latest video I see you have become exceedingly popular. Too popular for your own good. :twisted:
     
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  18. grim

    grim Gigabyte Poster

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    i was lucky enough to download it before he exceeded his bandwidth, had to download it as work blocked me from watching the video through the website :confused3

    when's the next installment out ?

    grim
     
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  19. juice142

    juice142 Megabyte Poster

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    Thanks Freddy. :thumbleft

    I did find some help on the VMware site, which suggested similar fixes to the ones you suggest, however I'm such a n00b with Linux in general that I'm afraid it was all a bit over my head. Still, I'll soldier on. :rolleyes:

    I downloaded and burnt a(n? how is xubuntu pronounced?) xubuntu CD, and found that it doesn't run well as a live CD on the lappie (only 128MB RAM). I've got a 256 MB stick on the way (all the poor little thing will support) so I'm going to install the distro properly once I've upgraded.

    Then I'm gonna try and get the wireless working. :eek:

    This is keeping me out of the pub. :eek:

    J.
     
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  20. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    For a system that old try running Damn Small Linux. It's specifically designed to be very light and easy on resources. I've never used it on a laptop, but it's worth a try. It's a LiveCD too, but it only uses around 15 megs of ram. All you can lose is the price of a blank cd so it's worth a try.
     
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