This is horribly tragic and unfortunately, horribly stupid

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by tripwire45, Mar 25, 2008.

  1. BosonMichael
    Honorary Member Highly Decorated Member Award 500 Likes Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

    19,183
    500
    414
    Do you honestly think that your average American has one of these lying around their house? Or wants one? :rolleyes:

    Some of you guys must assume the stereotypical American cowboy image is true. In truth, most people who have a firearm at all just have a plain old pistol... IF they've got anything at all.

    That said... I *have* qualified on the M203 before, as I was the grenadier in my squad. 8) Tears your shoulder up, I can promise you that! :blink
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  2. delorean

    delorean Megabyte Poster

    959
    15
    64
    Purely from an outsiders view I believe it's easier to obtain those types of weapons both legally and illegally in a country where those types of weapons are made available in the hopes they reach law abiding, qualified consumers than in a country with very strict gun control laws. I'm not saying the countries with strict gun control laws are completely free of them, of course not, but I would wager they are much harder to come by.
     
    Certifications: A+, MCP 70-270, 70-290, 70-291
    WIP: 70-680, S+, MCSA, MCSE, CCNA
  3. BosonMichael
    Honorary Member Highly Decorated Member Award 500 Likes Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

    19,183
    500
    414
    I fail to see how a military-grade grenade launcher is freely available to law-abiding citizens.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  4. Phoenix
    Honorary Member

    Phoenix 53656e696f7220 4d6f64

    5,749
    200
    246
    The problem with the majority of anti gun debates, is they all look at things from the wrong perspective, the right is not there for people to have guns to protect themselves, or there homes

    the right was enlisted to help 'maintain the security of a free state'

    that includes against tyranny and government oppression, not just against each other, a situation that was all to familiar in the early days of the union
    this fact has been lost over the years, and the chances of a critical mass of Americans standing up to their government have long waned, hell talking bad about your government is pretty much considered unpatriotic now, a scene very reminiscent of the situation in King George's reign

    Unfortunately as mentioned above, that kind of understanding has long since faded, people have guns now to keep under the pillow, fend off intruders and give them a good nights sleep, (and shoot deer of course), that and pretty poor firearms education leads to the 30'000 gun deaths each year in the US

    The right itself remains fundamental to the self governing requirement of a peoples republic, the wanton lack of protocol in attaining a deadly weapon is where the problem ultimately lies
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCITP, VCP
    WIP: > 0
  5. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

    4,196
    172
    211
    Actually I did know that. He was sleeping with your partner at the time, was he not? See, I do pay attention, really! :biggrin (Just dont tell the missus will you?). But I didnt assume you (personally) would do it, I was generalising.


    Agreed. I doubt its ever going to happen in America that guns are banned outright. I wouldnt like to be the chump charged with approaching people and demanding those weapons off them.

    But it could easily have not been.

    So we should just make all drugs legal, since making it illegal doesnt work? What about murder? Maybe we should make that legal too, since it doesnt seem to stop people killing does it? Or DUI, same argument applies.
     
    Certifications: ITIL Foundation; MCTS: Visual Studio Team Foundation Server 2010, Administration
    WIP: None at present
  6. Tinus1959

    Tinus1959 Gigabyte Poster

    1,539
    42
    106
    Well, as you know, in 15% of all road accidents, alcohol is involved. So in 85% NO alcohol is involved. The road would be a safer place if alcohol and driving was permitted.
     
    Certifications: See my signature
    WIP: MCSD, MCAD, CCNA, CCNP
  7. Modey

    Modey Terabyte Poster

    2,397
    99
    154
    I'm pretty much against the whole gun ownership culture in the USA but I have tried to have the debate before and I'm keeping out of it this time as I only get frustrated and feel like I'm banging my head against a wall.

    Anyway, I visit a car forum and somone mentioned recently a sticker they saw in somones rear window.

    "Guns don't kill people, idiots on cellphones do"

    Made me smile anyway. :)
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCP, MCDST, MCSA 2K3, MCTS, MOS, MTA, MCT, MCITP:EDST7, MCSA W7, Citrix CCA, ITIL Foundation
    WIP: Nada
  8. dmarsh
    Honorary Member 500 Likes Award

    dmarsh Petabyte Poster

    4,305
    503
    259
    I can't help wondering that if the tibetans weren't such a peaceful lot and maybe they were armed to the gills they might still have a country...

    Still look at africa, arms everywhere and doesn't seem to do them much good, same with a lot of places, the deterant argument only works with reasonable and non brutalised people, otherwise you get escalation and a blood bath.
     
  9. tripwire45
    Honorary Member

    tripwire45 Zettabyte Poster

    13,493
    180
    287
    Since I started this (and can't seem to stop it), I might as well contribute. There are a few pockets of the US that tend to agree that private ownership of firearms is a bad thing. In the uberliberal San Francisco, the city council passed a law making it illegal for citizens of that city to own handguns. On the other hand, there's a small town here in Idaho where the city council passed a law "encouraging" each household to possess at least one firearm for self defense (that raised a few eyebrows, even here in uberconservative Idaho).

    Over the past year, there have been a number of shootings on university campuses and the debate of whether or not to allow students to carry concealed weapons for self defense has come up. I know you are all probably thinking that's a crazy idea, since a student possessing firearms caused the shootings in the first place, but the idea is that if one or more students who were present (and potentially victims) of the attack were armed, they could have shot the assailant, preventing further injury and loss of life of innocent people.

    The University of Idaho in the northern part of my state initially opposed the idea and then reversed its decision and now allows students with valid concealed weapons permits to carry handguns on campus.

    I'm probably sending shivers down the spines of most people reading this post, but that's the nature of thinking about firearms here in the US. The concept of the right of private citizens to own firearms is so completely engrained into American culture, that I doubt it will ever be changed. I agree with Phoenix that we will not likely see citizens using their firearms to protect themselves against a totalitarian government (though a few fringe people would like to try) as was originally conceived by the nation's founders, but the idea of requiring people to surrender their guns is almost unthinkable for the majority of citizens. Even people who don't own firearms and who would never own them, would think twice before advocating the complete disarming of all US citizens.

    My father is a lifetime member of the National Rifle Association which is the major lobbiest for firearm ownership in this country. While I don't share his passion as a hunter and gun hobbiest, I do share his view of the right for the citizenship to possess firearms privately. If guns were made illegal in this country, there would be only three groups who would possess such weapons...the military, the police, and criminals. I know that most people may not conceive of the US becoming a true "police state", but there have always been elements of that in our government and post 9-11, our civil liberties have been even more eroded.

    If it come down to a police state or other circumstance where the "normal" checks and balances in our our government operates should alter drastically, we as citizens might have to revisit what self-defense means. I agree, it seems a remote possibility at best, but it does exist.

    I was raised around firearms and taught a respect for them. My father drilled it into me that you don't point a firearm at anything you don't intend to shoot...even if you are convinced that it's not loaded and even if you are convinced that the firearm doesn't operate. Most gun owners I know (in fact, all of them that I'm aware of) have a similar mentality. Unforunately, a few idiots out there who are careless and thoughtless, paint gun owners as a whole with the same, broad brush.

    Occasionally, this debate has cropped up between citizens of the US and the UK (or those raised in the UK) with predictable results. Each nation possesses a fundamental point of view on the concept of firearm ownership and neither one is going to change. Each side feels they are correct in their point of view but that's based on centuries old perspectives and ideals that have become the "mindset" of the citizenry.

    While I don't advocate private ownership of grenade launchers or fully automatic rifles, I don't have problem one with someone owning a handgun for home defense or target shooting or owning a rifle or shotgun for hunting. If you weren't raised that way in a country that supports those concepts, I can see how it would be an issue. It is an issue for some Americans who won't own a firearm out of principle and who oppose gun ownership. Gun owners already feel they are over regulated and some are upset that they are required to register their firearms with the authorities, believing that if the laws change banning gun ownership, it will make it easy for the police to come to their homes and confiscate their weapons.

    There are probably more motor vehicle deaths on American roads each year than there ever will be firearm related deaths, but as someone pointed out, only firearms are designed to specifically put holes in something and have no other purpose. Yes, they're dangerous. They're supposed to be. That's the idea. They are also a big, big part of the American culture and legacy and as long as those values exist, so will private gun ownership in this country. Let the debate rage on, but the situation won't change...and if our government someday does require that all citizens surrender their firearms to the authorities, then a lot of Americans will feel threatened. Hard to understand? I know. I'm not a "gun nut", but I'd feel afraid.
     
    Certifications: A+ and Network+
  10. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

    4,196
    172
    211
    Remember, Trip - the UK allowed possession of handguns up until the recent Dunblane incident in which an armed nutter entered a school and shot half the pupils. So its only recently that private ownership of guns was banned. Not centuries. Even now, gun ownership is still permitted in certain circumstances in the UK.

    Edit: Wiki
     
    Certifications: ITIL Foundation; MCTS: Visual Studio Team Foundation Server 2010, Administration
    WIP: None at present
  11. BosonMichael
    Honorary Member Highly Decorated Member Award 500 Likes Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

    19,183
    500
    414
    But that's the point... I don't have to fend off intruders, and I do get a good nights sleep. And for all you know, I may not even have a gun in my house. What keeps me safe isn't the law, because the legal system in the US is horribly weak. What keeps me safe is the threat that I might have a gun. Stay out of my house without my permission, and you won't find out if I do or not.

    And I don't shoot deer. :D

    You guys reeeeeally have a messed up, stereotypical idea of how we Americans live our lives. :rolleyes:
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  12. Modey

    Modey Terabyte Poster

    2,397
    99
    154
    So what you are saying is that armed robbery of any kind is unheard of in the USA because all criminals assume potential victims may be armed as well. It would be nice if it actually worked that way ...
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCP, MCDST, MCSA 2K3, MCTS, MOS, MTA, MCT, MCITP:EDST7, MCSA W7, Citrix CCA, ITIL Foundation
    WIP: Nada
  13. BosonMichael
    Honorary Member Highly Decorated Member Award 500 Likes Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

    19,183
    500
    414
    He was, indeed! At least, I can assume that he either was... or was GOING to, that night.

    The problem with generalising is that those labels get put on me, indirectly. When in fact, it doesn't apply to MOST people who have a lick of common sense and a shred of morality and/or humanity.

    Your analogy falls apart: I can't use drugs to prevent someone from using drugs. I can't drink and drive to prevent someone from drinking and driving. But I can use a gun to prevent someone from using a gun on me.

    Doesn't mean I have to shoot that gun... I merely have to HAVE a gun, and nobody has to get hurt. Not them... and not my family. If I DON'T have a gun... then my family is at risk from someone who DOES have a gun. If guns were illegal, I certainly wouldn't know how to acquire one. But the criminals would.

    You might say that I would "murder" someone who has the intentions of murdering me... but if I kill a home invader, that's not considered the legal definition of murder. Although someone dies, that'd be considered self-defense. Thus, murder ISN'T, nor should it be, legal.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  14. BosonMichael
    Honorary Member Highly Decorated Member Award 500 Likes Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

    19,183
    500
    414
    Are you saying that armed robbery of any kind is unheard of in the UK because guns are banned? It would be nice if it actually worked that way...
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  15. Modey

    Modey Terabyte Poster

    2,397
    99
    154
    Not at all, but it's certainly very low (even per capita) compared to the USA. Perhaps you'll answer my question now though?
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCP, MCDST, MCSA 2K3, MCTS, MOS, MTA, MCT, MCITP:EDST7, MCSA W7, Citrix CCA, ITIL Foundation
    WIP: Nada
  16. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

    4,196
    172
    211
    my point wasnt to dispute the like for like defense. It was to point out that just because the current law doesnt seem to have an effect on prevalence of those committing those types of crimes, that is no reason to not make it illegal in the first place.
     
    Certifications: ITIL Foundation; MCTS: Visual Studio Team Foundation Server 2010, Administration
    WIP: None at present
  17. BosonMichael
    Honorary Member Highly Decorated Member Award 500 Likes Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

    19,183
    500
    414
    Agreed. A lack of defense can cause you (whether that be a person or a country) to be helpless when attacked.

    Also agreed. There must be some semblance of order, or the whole system breaks down.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  18. BosonMichael
    Honorary Member Highly Decorated Member Award 500 Likes Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

    19,183
    500
    414
    No, you were saying that we should blindly make everything legal because guns are legal (in the US). That argument isn't logical.

    Sure, gun deaths may be greater in the US than in other countries. But other crimes - rape, robbery, battery, and murder (with and without guns) - may very well be lower because of a well-defended (armed) population. You can't look at gun deaths in a little box... you have to look at EVERYTHING.

    In any case, I feel safer because of it. Again, neither I or anyone in my family has *ever* been victimized.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  19. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

    4,196
    172
    211
    Again wrong. I was pointing out that current US policy (according to your arguments) was to make guns legal because it levelled the playing field between you and the criminals. When I pointed out that perhaps more should be done to reduce criminals possessing guns, rather than just saying that everyone can have guns to make it all fair, you responded by pointing out that that didnt work with drugs.

    I then went on to point out that your argument certainly seemed to say that because it wasnt working, we shouldnt bother making it illegal.

    Do you dispute that you said this? If so, however you meant it, thats certainly how it reads to me.
     
    Certifications: ITIL Foundation; MCTS: Visual Studio Team Foundation Server 2010, Administration
    WIP: None at present
  20. neutralhills

    neutralhills Kilobyte Poster

    366
    28
    64
    I used one of my guns last summer to shoot a rabid coyote that had my daughter cornered down by the graineries (our yard is four acres). We don't live in a place where the police are a five/ten minute call away. Some of us actually do have a need for firearms, and, yes, we store and use them responsibly.

    BTW, I'm an extremely rural Canadian so you're going to need to work a bit if you want to slag me as you just did Americans (who we have been very blessed to have as our neighbors).

    The husband in the linked story should have someone use the .22 involved to punch a few holes in his head -- it obviously needs to have some light let in.
     
    Certifications: Lots.
    WIP: Upgrading MS certs

Share This Page

Loading...
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.