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The value of a Cert

Discussion in 'General Microsoft Certifications' started by SimonV, Aug 26, 2003.

  1. SimonV

    SimonV Petabyte Poster Administrator

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    After reading a post on the topic of MCSE-Win2K Core Exams Getting Refreshed I read on under the article and found some of the MCP user comments interesting.

    To quote a couple:

    I wondered if anyone was in this position and has had the same experiences. Comments please.

    the rest of the comments can be found at the end of the page http://www.mcpmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=574.
     
    Certifications: MOS Master 2003, CompTIA A+, MCSA:M, MCSE
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  2. flex22

    flex22 Gigabyte Poster

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    I've just about had it with MCSE.

    Like that guy said, he'd rather employ someone with expereince.

    I have no expereince therefore they don't wanna know.

    Well blow them :!:
     
  3. brent

    brent Nibble Poster

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    I wouldnt go along with that attitude flex, I dont work in IT "yet" but I know I'll make it. Its all about determination. If you really want it then you'll get there. My friend who introduced my into IT and is a wiz, worked hard to get into IT and came from no experience to being a IT system engineer. I look at his accievemtns and think "I can do it too" and that give me the drive to keep going.

    The people that brainbump for exams are just making things harder for all of us and devalueing the certs. Its no wonder employers have such a hard time gettting good emplees when they have to week out all the so called "paper MCSE's". But its like everything in the world today, its very competative out there and if you dont run at the same speed then your never gonna win.

    heres another comment from the MCP article with a different viewpoint:

     
  4. Nelix
    Honorary Member

    Nelix Gigabyte Poster

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    Flex

    Don't get disheartened, this is just the opinion of 1 guy in IT, there are alot of people out there that do realise that a newbie needs someone to give them a break and give them a chance to prove they can do the job.

    It took me some time to get a job in IT, I though i was never going to manage, the job i have now is only helpdesk but as my knowledge grows (having administrator access to the network helps) and the more i poke around on this network, the quicker and more i learn and the chances of moveing up the ladder, in this job or the next, have been greatly increased, use everything to your advantage and DONT give up trying, all your hard work will pay off in the end.
     
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  5. flex22

    flex22 Gigabyte Poster

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    Thanks Nelix and Si.

    That positive example you gave Nelix was something I unfortunately have never come across.

    What that guy said is absolutely spot on, I couldn't agree more.

    It is devaluing MCSE.

    When I came into this I was so looking forward to learning stuff, so excited.

    I tell you what's eaten me away to the point were I'm now at my wits end.

    It's the bleepin attitude that that guy mentioned.He said that going on about ahving to have years of experience is devaluing MCSE.

    What's withered my enthusiasm and even my will to learn is constantly, constantly hearing,

    "well, if you haven't got expereince then your worthless, a paper MCSE, not worth a spit"

    This attitude disgusts me.

    How dare someone call me a Paper MCSE.

    My sister just graduated from University with a degree in Social studies, or summit similar, I forget now.

    Anyway, now she's back at home looking for work in order to gain experience.

    The thing is, nobody would dream of calling her a Paper graduate because she hasn't got the experience yet, that would be considered absurd, and rightly so.

    Yet durin the last year or so of studying that's all I've bleepin heard.

    I'm sat here writing this, red as a beetrute coz it so riles me.

    Windows 2000 so different from NT4 in many ways.

    Actually if you think about it, us new guys now coming through should actually be considered to be the prime crop.

    You see, people who have been working on Windows NT4 for years have to learn a whole new way of doing things in Windows 2000.

    Us newbies on the other hand don't have this to deal with, coz we never saw NT and don't care about it.

    Of course, backward compatibility is their advantage but that's not gonna be around forever.

    Anyway, hope I make sense, I usually just spit things out without thinking, oh well :daz
     
  6. Sandy

    Sandy Ex-Member

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    IMHO the 2 things go hand in hand (I realise is it difficult if you are just starting out but it is the same in any job)

    For many, many years I dismissed the certification route but then in my late 30's decided that I had worked in the industry but could not gauge how good/bad I was so set off on the long trail of getting my MCSE.

    If I am ever in the position of hiring people again I shall always favour somebody who has go off their fat a$$, turned off the Solitare, stuck their neck out and sat some exams. It proves two things for me: -

    a) they are committed to being the best
    b) they can learn new stuff
     
  7. AndyL

    AndyL Nibble Poster

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    I'm with you Sandy. I worked hard for my MCSE and would be struggling in my job (Humble IT Technician) if I hadn't done it.

    Flex - There are employers out there (mine, for example) who value Microsoft certification and the idea that you can gain the qualification without knowing at least some of the important bits is nonsense.

    The world of networks and servers is getting more and more complex and if you don't know your stuff (even on "paper") you're stuffed.
     
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  8. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

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    From what I understand here, are there two issues? First a pure paper MCSE and second braindumps?

    In my opinion (and this is only my opinion) you go on the MS training course (or study from books/CD's/etc) to get the information you need to get the work/job done - you get the experience for the job - and you use the braindumps to help you how the exam is set-up and how to answer the questions.

    I'm not saying cheat - far from it, you need the knowledge to understand the concepts for the certification, however after sitting through 7 training courses plus 3 self study courses, when you do go and sit for the exams the first couple of times you're going to be throw off balance. Especially when you go from Comptia to MS style exams. So I think that braindunps are a valid from of revision, as long as you do not depend on them as the only form of revision.

    Now Paper qualifications are different for me, again it falls into two categories: academic and professional/technicial.

    Academically I'm a software engineer, I've got a BSc in it, no ones going to say otherwise because it is a traditional qualification. However Professional Technicial qualifications say that you can do the job. In my opinion, I do not put alot of faith in paper MCSE/A's. Simple reason, I would not like to leave my network in the hands of a person who can talk and talk but can't walk the walk. Because if something happens, I'm the one who is gonna have to sort it out.

    But of course there is always an exception to the rule if you do get a MCSE/A (or whatever) and they start from the ground and work themselves up - well then, they're not paper MCSE/A anymore, are they?

    Have fun...
     
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  9. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    Quite right.

    I'm doing an MCSD, but I'm not from an IT background. Like many others, I'm trying to get a foothold by earning my certification. I don't kid myself about it, I will be a 'paper' MCSD and I work with experienced guys who know more than I ever will, yet have no certifications. I don't use braindumps, just course material. At the end of the day, you sit the same exams as experienced professionals, so something must sink in along the way.
    People using braindumps are only cheating themselves and will get caught out sooner or later.
     
    Certifications: MCT, MCTS, i-Net+, CIW CI, Prince2, MSP, MCSD
  10. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

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    Just a quick question for you guys (on the fun side), what would you class me as?

    I'm a senior tech/assistant network manager, a MCSA/MCDST, I do systems/network administration, helpdesk etc, currently extending my network (both hard wire and wireless). I'm studying for my MCSE. I don't do any network design in my current role.

    When I get the MCSE, what would people class me as? A paper MCSE, a "super" MCSA, or an IT Professional?

    Good luck to all those who are trying to get into the IT field through certs and those in the IT field getting certified.
     
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  11. Modey

    Modey Terabyte Poster

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    Professional Slacker! :)
     
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  12. AJ

    AJ Administrator Administrator

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    I would like to think that all of us who are studying, or who have passed are all classed as IT professionals in one respect or another. The range of people on the forum from Newbies to the Highly qualified and fron the highly experienced to people who have just dabbled in computers. We are all professionals to some degree as we are all dedicated to gaining certs in a profesional way and not use the more dodgy ways of gaining our certs.

    Please don't think for a minute that I'm having a dig at you wagnerk, but IMHO your question is just not answerable.
     
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  13. Mitzs
    Honorary Member

    Mitzs Ducktape Goddess

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    If you use braindumps in anyway to pass your exams I class you as cheat. There is no good reason ever to use bd. People that do only cheapen the worth of that cert for those that have busted their arse to earn it the hard way.
     
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  14. Phoenix
    Honorary Member

    Phoenix 53656e696f7220 4d6f64

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    you look at it all to literal
    you work in IT, hence your an IT Professional

    you work with Microsoft products, hence an MCSE is a boost to your understanding not a qualification to enter the industry
    did you do it by reading a book? maybe, why should paying 4 grand be a requirement to be an IT Professional?

    paper MCSES are not people who read to study, they are people who actually dont have a clue what it is there studying
    ive met MCSES who cant format floppy disks, THOSE are paper MCSEs
     
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  15. Jakamoko
    Honorary Member

    Jakamoko On the move again ...

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    Don't think anyone around here would argue braindumps aren't worth as much as the paper you wipe your @$$ with, regardless if they've worked for you or not !

    Believe me, I say this because I have seen them and laughed !
     
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  16. tripwire45
    Honorary Member

    tripwire45 Zettabyte Poster

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    As I'm sure you know, the information posted at braindump sites was provided by test takers who immediately after the test, wrote down as many of the questions and answers as they could recall, then posted them on the Internet. This is in direct violation of the Non-disclosure Agreement (NDA) they digitally signed when the took the exam. They are in violation of contract and if caught, could be criminally prosecuted. Anyone who uses a braindump site is an accessory after the fact.

    Also, who's to say these knuckleheads wrote it down write. They are assuming the correct answer to the various questions and could be dead wrong, so the information gathered at braindump sites is questionable at best. Braindumps don't help you do anything except practice poor ethics and morals.
     
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  17. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

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    There are dodgy material out there, I agree. That kind of stuff I have to say to leave - stay away from them. But what about stuff from ExamCram, Transcender, even Microsoft. Unless I've got my lingo, mixed up to what a braindump is. Those three produce questions and answers to aid in your study, to show where you fail and point you in the right direction. Now if I'm wrong in my lingo - forgive me. But if not - what some people are saying is that mock exams of any kind are a form of cheating?
     
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  18. Jakamoko
    Honorary Member

    Jakamoko On the move again ...

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    Mock exams are what they say - simulated scenarios based closely on what you can expect to face in the real thing, and generally created by people who know what they are talking about. Created specifically as study aids.

    Braindumps, as discussed, are partially-remembered rip-offs of exams just taken by individuals, and then sold or re-distributed in order that others can supposedly remember the actual questions set by the exam vendor themselves.

    There is a vital distinction here - those that subscribe to the latter definition above are a useless waste of everyone's time.
     
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  19. Mitzs
    Honorary Member

    Mitzs Ducktape Goddess

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    I can't speak for examcram or MS. But I know 2 of the people that write for TS and have been to the place of bussiness while it was still in Nashville. The people that write for TS have a libary that won't quit. They also have networks set up to lean this stuff inside and out. These people bust their arse to learn a subject so they may produce some of the best study matierial out there. There work is on the up and up and no real testing material is used in their products.
     
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  20. tripwire45
    Honorary Member

    tripwire45 Zettabyte Poster

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    Gav put it nicely. I believe your understanding of what a braindump is was not quite accurate, wagnerk. Transcender, Cram Exam and MS Press among others, are legitimate sources of information and mock exam software that allow you to practice with the look and feel of taking a test. Glad we got that one cleared up. "whew"
     
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