Realistic salary

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You'll be lucky to even get a job with all those advanced certs and no experience to be honest.

 

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If you get very lucky, someone might let you volunteer. In other words, you're likely to get a salary of nothing. Certifications are not the holy the grail of breaking into IT no matter how many salesmen tell you they are. Experience is the holy grail. Go out and volunteer, spend your money on building yourself a computer lab, find a way to intern someplace. Forget the certs until you have your foot in the door, and then use them as a hand's-on way of building your skills. Work through everything in computer lab, not just by reading a book designed to get you to pass a test.

You think I'm kidding? I'm not. It took me several years to get my first job in IT. It wasn't until I started interning and giving my labor away for free that I finally got my foot in the door and found a job.

Certifications? I have an MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, and an A+. Sound familiar? Certifications without experience are worthless. You've been conned into buying a bill-of-goods. I didn't even get my certs is as worthless a manner as you are. I spent years in my computer lab located in my basement working my way through all my certs. I earned them. I knew how to do the work because I'd been doing the work in labs built to mimic real world environments. I still couldn't get a job.

MCSE's are a dime-a-dozen. There are approximately 3/4 of a million certified MS engineers floating around. There are over 2.1 million people with some form of MS certification. Many of them have gotten their certs the way you are, or have just flat out brain dumped their way through them. That's made them absolutely worthless for those of us who worked hard to earn to them. All you're doing is adding to the list of those who are making certifications of even less value than they are now.

I spent more than 2 years earning my certifications. I spent another couple of years learning Linux basics. All of it's been hands-on and I've built up a library of well over 100 books on theory, practice, etc... in the thousands of hours I've spent studying and learning hands-on. All told it took me 5 years to break into IT because I thought that getting certs was the way to get my foot in the door, and I didn't get stupid enough to think I could learn years-worth of material in 7 weeks.

The job market is glutted with out-of-work people with experience, and 10's of thousands of people just like you without any experience but with those precious little pieces of paper that they paid good money for called certifications. Out sourcing has sent all the entry level jobs to India, Pakistan, etc.... Employers are sick of looking at resumes from people who brain dumped and/or thought they could learn what would have taken the person at least 4 years in college to learn in a few weeks. Resumes from people without experience find their way to the little round file storage facility found on the floor at the corner of most desks almost immediately.

Get smart. Don't throw away your money.

 

Nice post Freddy, spot on.

 

That is a pretty ambitious undertaking. I don't want to rehash all the great points that have already made, but I will give you an insight to they way our company handles things. For an entry level helpdesk job, should you end up getting the certs, the group would not even entertain someone with CCNA or even MCSA for fear of them only sticking around for a short time. They would desire someone to come in with an A+ or N+ or even and MCP with goals of moving up. If you then move to our networking group, we would look and see the certs that you have and we would quiz you like mad in an interview to ensure that the certs match the knowledge. It is a bit of a catch 22.

Funny story. Our former boss (who has been fired) hired an additional Network Engineer whom we all felt did not meet the requirements for the job. This guy was hired anyway. By Friday of his first week he was fired. An MCSE, who didn't know what RDP/MSTSC was, didn't understand how to navigate AD, didn't even understand the concept behind group policy... etc.

Good luck to you. It isn't a bad idea to have lofty goals and aspirations, however make sure that what you are taking on isn't going to kill your spirit. I do not think 7 weeks is nearly enough time to get a concrete understanding of the concepts, but if you can make it work, kudos!

 

I can't disagree with you ffreeloader, especially having problems with a job myself, but I don't agree totally. As we can see, people posting here can find a job in IT not having previous related experience. Does it mean that it is better to be "nude" while looking for the first job than to try to prepare somehow even if it is "only" reading IT books. I think that many employers in IT show their ignorance for people with degree qualification ( I mean real degree, not Microsoft's or other certificates). I can't understand it. It is the best indicator of personal capabilities and defined ambitious approach to further professional development. It is of course worth "nothing" at the start, but very fast it can mean everything. Many people simply learn faster than others and pick up new skills quite naturally. Eliminating people who have shown effort to know more is illogical for me, especially if he or she tries to start from the entry level.
Having computing sciences degree should be of a bigger value for engineer support position than call center experience.

 

Well Snowwhite has a point. In reality it depends on the employer and the individual, I certainly wouldn't rule out a degree. I think the viewpoints tend to be skewed to support and certs because of the nature of the forum. For many support positions a Computer Science degree is not really required.

In general I think a Computer Science Degree is very valid path, especially if you ensure you get the most out of it by applying yourself and picking the more in depth modules. Many employers in the UK do favour degrees, but you may still have to start at the bottom.

I degree is a big investment, for talented individuals that apply themselves it may be they are likely to succeed whatever path they take. I've met people with degrees that are very smart and also some that are very dumb, I think its wrong to assume that a degree education means a person can't be hands on, especially in this day and age !

Every years millions of people in R&D departments, engineering, science, defense etc make new discoveries and perform important work, nearly all these people have degrees, why do you think that is ? A degree is designed to prove you have the ability to learn and grasp difficult ideas and develop new ones. Very few cert programs do this, most just test the ability to memorize stuff or learn basic concepts.

Theres no way you can actually learn all those subjects and take exams in seven weeks. They are bootcamp cram courses designed for people with experience to cram for the exam or they are just unethical training compaines.

 

Um you do realise hes telling us that he studying Microsoft MCSA, Cisco CCNA, Comptia Security+, A+ and Network+ all in seven weeks. Now I understand what your saying about some people pick up skills quite naturally etc but I'm gonna put my balls to the wall on this one and point out that even the mcsa in that short of a time would most likely be attained only with braindumps although in this case we're not even sure he's taking the exams which brings a whole new level of pointlessness into it, if this is the case. With regards to your comments about employers being ignorant of a degree- many jobs I would have like to apply for were graduate only positions so I could counter that many employers are ignorant of certs and this whole thing could go back and forth forever. I think what I'm trying to say is theres a right and a wrong way to do things and he's about to do it wrong. The whole point of a site like this is for people like us to come and get advice from people who know what theyre doing and when those people are saying what they've all similarly just said about Guy123's study camp thingy an intelligent man would listen and react. Its got nothing to do with picking things up fast or employer ignorance I'll say it again

THERE IS A RIGHT AND A WRONG WAY


From haunting this site and listening to what more experienced individuals have to say about training and employment I've managed to land a great first job and I promise you it would not have been possible if I'd disregarded everything these guys had to say because my mind was already made up.

P.S. This is not intended as a bashing or anything of the like its just that there is a trend on this site of people who would otherwise thrive in the i.t industry missing the boat because of bad training/advice
Nothing these guys say is out of malice. It is born out of experience.
I wish all who read this the best of luck with your decisions

 

The way I see things, it's not ignorance on employer's parts that cause the to "overlook" the "value" of college or certs without experience. It's because most college courses and all brain dumping--and in my definition of brain dumping I include book-only studying for certifications--do not give a person real world experience. And, as real world problems and situations simply can't be covered by books there is no real way for employers to able to tell how well someone will be able to translate book-smarts into hands-on smarts. There's a real difference between the two.

Troubleshooting is an art form almost all unto itself, as far as I'm concerned. It takes having the ability to take all the theory and knowledge a person gets from books and experience, and being able to synthesize it somehow into an innate sense of what is happening that helps a person visualize what's going on inside a system. I think it's something someone is born with, or without. If you're born with it troubleshooting comes naturally. If you're not, well, it's going to take years of learning and memorizing of problems before a person gets good.

I've spent most of my adult life in jobs that require troubleshooting of technical issues of one type or another. I've seen guys come and go enough in different technical areas to know that some just "get" it right off the bat, and some just never seem to. I've had to evaluate potential technicians by having them work with me, and it's almost comical sometimes watching guys who have lots of book smarts and no technical ability try to troubleshoot something. It's plain they just can't do it.

On the other hand I remember what it was like in the technical school I trained in for HVAC and refrigeration repair. I took to troubleshooting like a duck to water. I could visualize what was going on inside electrical circuits and refrigeration systems from day one. I could just "see" it. I can't tell you how many people who actually got better "book" grades than I did, who just couldn't "see" it.

This is why employers "undervalue" a college education. They've seen the real world results of so many college educations. Being book smart and being able to take tests well does not necessarily translate into someone being "technically astute". Only real world experience reveals whether or not the first will translate into the second.

 

I'll agree with Freddy (and others) 110% here. Like him, I attained all of my certs by self-studying and building my network myself, in my basement -- part time. Even after I had A+, Network+, MCSA and MCSE, I still only got nibbles on my resume. Plus, I live in one of the most highly IT active areas in the U.S., so scoring a job should be gravy, right? BZZZT. Unfortunately, my career change that started in 2003 has still not fully revealed -- it took me 3 years before I could get a job in IT (although I did have a 6 month stint as a webhost admin), and even then, its on the fringe. Definitely not the System Engineer role in an AD/Exchange environment I envisioned.

That said, this *is* a challenging undertaking, getting into IT. You DO need things that will put you above the other candidate. An advanced cert could be the deal-breaker, but like others have said, employers also like to match the candidate to the position. When I first got into my role, I thought they didn't even notice the certifications, especially since I had to mention it several times to my superiors.

me: "Wow, I wouldn't mind transferring to that position some day..."
boss: "Yeah, well...they only accept people with certs."
me: "Umm...I have a few certifications."
boss: "You do? Still...they want somebody familiar with MS stuff."
.... you can guess how the conversation went from here.

See, certs are great, but only if they are constantly on your employer's mind. Its probably a good idea to list your candidacy for certs as well -- as sort of a hint that you believe in advancing your knowledge and experience (plenty of seasoned IT pros don't believe its necessary). Bottom line is, don't let this course be the end-all-be-all. I'll avoid denigrating it as a braindump (although the cert lineup and completion time is suspect), since they seemed to forget about an actual exam I do agree with you, in that if you're going to do this -- DO IT RIGHT. Eat sleep and breathe this stuff 16 hours a day, and don't squander your investment. You CAN learn a lot in 7 weeks, and that knowledge and experience will help you far more than those exams will at this stage of your career. Good luck!

 

I somtimes wonder if my degree will be that helpful in the future for me? Though without University I would not have got my first I.T. job (placement) which in turn has helped me got the one I have now.

In the future don't particularly want to go down the Graduate position, though it seems enticicing, good prospects and training etc.

I plan to be studying for N+ A+ and MCSA in order and I have two years of I.T. experiance be time I start them properly. 7 weeks to learn all that no way.

 

Would this be the 7 week course held at JBC in Coventry???

If so yes you will be studying those qualifications, but only vital topics here and there (A+ N+ chapters, AD, file shares/security for a few examples) mixed in with practical labs to explain and show how the theory works.

The actual qualifications you walk away with are City & Guilds level 2 + 3 practitioners diplomas, which in the real world are less useful than toilet paper, but it does show you are willing to learn.

The A+, N+, MCP 270 & 271 (XP Pro and server 2003) are attainable with self study or to go back and attend one of JBC’s many courses.

As for the get you work side of the business they will try and get you some work but it is all down to where in the UK you are and if you have any security clearance and don’t mind doing contract work to a degree. But they gave CV lessons as well to make sure your CV looks as attractive (and truthful!) as possible for employers.

Has the course helped me find employment.. In all honesty yes, A bit of the information I knew already and there was a lot I learned as well and the in class labs was done to be challenging and made sure it tested the skills you just learned, as far as I am honestly aware I wasn’t brain dumping either!


Actually getting a job after this course I got a job earning £15k travelling the UK installing bespoke software in doctor’s surgery’s.. Something I quickly grew to despise and quit after 2 months.. After 4 months of doing warehouse work and adhoc jobs I finally managed to land a field engineer job earning £17k.

The course is a hell of a lot of money! .. I was just glad I got it as my resettlement out of the airforce

Now I just gotta save up for the A+ exam lol.

 

I'm going to contradict you here, i started on a course with UK IT Training. ECDL, A+,N+, MCSA, MCSE, CCNA and all to be completed within 18 months. I got a job 3 days after passing my 70-270 @ £14,000 a year.

Now this is a job i got to gain experience, i'll keep the/a job for teh next 9 months to build up experience and at the end of my 18 months i expect it to be fairly easy for my training provider to find me the promised 20K a year job.