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Interview next week, dilemma!

Discussion in 'Employment & Jobs' started by orangepeeleo, Sep 17, 2010.

  1. orangepeeleo

    orangepeeleo Nibble Poster

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    Hey guys,

    As some of you may know i'm prone to a bit of a whinge about my current salary, well my contract finishes beginning of dec so i thought i'd get my CV back out on the jobsites and see what happens. Had a phone call already with someone who is going to interview me at 8am on tuesday morning, perfect as i am currently employed and start work between 8.30 - 9am, the role seems similar to mine responsibility wise with it being advertised as 1st/2nd line Support, but the pay is quoted as 20-25k and if i can hit anywhere near the top of that payscale i'd be getting a 5-7k rise!

    Now though i am in a bit of a dilemma because atm i actually do love my job, could just do with some more money to help at home, so i have mixed feelings about (possibly) leaving to go somewhere else, i think i've really got to think over the weekend about my personal balance between enjoying work and money, and which is more important, i'm also worried incase i decide not to take this new job (if offered ofc) in the hope that the client will take me on permanently here, which does happen and was being spoke about whilst i was being interviewed, and then not being taken on perm and being given a new contract with my employer (who are notoriously stingey when it comes to pay rises)

    Should i email my employer (not where i work) and be upfront with them, saying that i have put my CV back up and am getting interest....what is the situation with my contract?? Kinda thing? I think this is the best way about it as i won't be going behind their backs with the client (which i now realise is a no-go area) or just randomly sticking in my notice without trying to discuss things with them first?
    Its weird b/c contracts are normally auto renewed and i feel that mine will most probably (literally about a 95% chance) be renewed too, but i want a perm job for security and obv more salary, as atm although there is loads going on with the client and they will most likely renew, i am, at the end of the day, excess and can be removed quite easily if the budget takes a hit or w/e.

    Also, and sorry for rattling on, i am concerned about my career if i just stay with the client whilst contracted to someone else, although i do feel that i could keep this arrangement up for years, not being a F/T perm staff member, i dont get the individual career meetings or any career management at all. One of the perm staff guys whos on the desktop team has just been shifted into more network side of things and more project orientated, along with being put on a CCNA in the near future, this wouldnt happen to me and i could easily stay in a 2nd line role for years, breezing the job but not progressing :(

    God i'm so confused!! Has anyone been in this situation before, or if not, what is more important to the members here, salary... or job satisfaction?? Because if i draw up a list of pro's and con's of my current job the con's list is empty bar the salary :(
     
    Certifications: A+
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  2. orangepeeleo

    orangepeeleo Nibble Poster

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    Also, regarding this, the people i am being interviewed with are a market leading company who recently opened a new office in london and since 2009 have seen an increase by 50% to their headcount, i think a job with them would be about as secure as they come.
     
    Certifications: A+
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  3. Josiahb

    Josiahb Gigabyte Poster

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    To start with, reading your first post your cons list has three items in it not one:

    • Salary
    • Job Security
    • lack of career progression

    As you say, being a contract worker if the client suffers a budget squeeze then you'll find your contract at an end and the job search will take on a whole new urgency. Add to that the fact that the client has no particular interest in providing you with career advancement opportunities and your actual employer isn't going to push you on whilst you're fulfilling the role your contracted for.

    I can only say from personal experience, talking with my manager did make a difference when I started getting itchy feet, unfortunately it couldn't make a big enough difference to make me want to stick around long term. I wouldn't mention the fact your already looking to your current employer in this case though, if nothing comes of this interview and your still looking come december your employer is less likely to renew if they know your looking to bail.

    Edit: As to what is more important? For me, Job Satisfaction is top of the list but salary obviously plays a part in that equation, if the salary is ****e then it doesn't matter how great the place is to work your going to end up going home feeling cheated. I'm actually looking to move for all three of the main reasons at the moment (job satisfaction, career progression and salary) but part of that is because of the recognition that all three are interelated.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2010
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  4. Shinigami

    Shinigami Megabyte Poster

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    Job satisfaction is in my opinion, more important than money. Granted I wouldn't exactly want to go for a job that pays 50% less just to have a slightly better job (it's all on a scale), but I left a bank which paid very well, to take my job at Microsoft which doesn't pay quite as well, but this new job is infinitely better than my old one.

    Definitely the best choice I made.

    Your problem however seems to be that your current contract will end in a few months, and if you're not 100% sure that this will be renewed, then you should be on the lookout for a new job.

    Additionally, you do not actually know if this new job is any worse than the current one. In fact it may even be better, but until you find a way to speak to people who've worked/work internally there, you won't know this. Does glassdoor.com have any reviews of this other company that could help you find out more about them?
     
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  5. soundian

    soundian Gigabyte Poster

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    The time to talk to your employer is when you have a job offer on the table. If they know you're thinking about jumping ship, they may just give you a push. You'll want something soft to land on if that happens.
    It sounds like the new job will tick all your boxes, except possibly job satisfaction. I'd trade a shedload of job satisfaction for a permanent job earning more money with career prospects at the moment.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+,MCDST,MCTS(680), MCP(270, 271, 272), ITILv3F, CCENT
    WIP: Knuckling down at my new job
  6. orangepeeleo

    orangepeeleo Nibble Poster

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    I went on the after tax wage calculator and put in some numbers, if i can even get 23-24k then things will be VERY comfortable at home with my wage paying the bills and my wifes (well paid) part time wage being completely disposable. I think this makes my mind up for me, i can start giving my family so much more and do things we've never been able to afford before so i would be stupid not to take it if i am successful, and i could never whinge about being skint/not being paid enough again if i turned it down.

    Thanks for the advice guys, its cleared my head on the matter and i know what i have to do..... impress on tuesday!! :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2010
    Certifications: A+
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  7. SimonD

    SimonD Terabyte Poster Moderator

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    The grass is always greener, until you move to the other side of the fence.

    I have to be honest with you mate, I think you have to realise that it's an employers market out there, there are a number of things that I think you need to understand and that's this.

    1. You really need to understand what kind of financial burden any kind of job is going to have on you. Whether that's the long commute or the long hours, there will always be something about a job that pisses you off.

    2. There are far too many experienced and better qualified people out there looking for work, so if you have a job don't do things that will jeopordise your position.

    3. There are certain things that you have said or intimated that show you come from a military background (ie to a large degree sheltered from the real world), don't worry I know where you're coming from because I spent 10 years serving in the RCT\RLC\RMP. Unfortunately for you at the moment you need to mature a little bit more (and please, don't think this is me having a go because it's not, I was very much like you 10 years ago).

    4. There are always going to have to be sacrifices, no job is going to offer everything your way and until you realise that you are always going to have a bit of a humf about every job you do (don't pay enough, make too much money out of me, too far to commute to etc). Until you're your own boss then unfortunately you are always going to be someone elses bitch, accept it and smile.

    As far as this interview goes, I would honestly be really careful what you do, why? because you're new to IT and if you're not careful and you move on from this position before it naturally expires you run the risk of getting yourself a bad name and believe me, the world of IT in the UK really is quite small (I was talking to a salesman on Monday who knew a whole load of people that I did, people remember other people and if you get a bad name for yourself you run the risk of being rejected for roles because of that). I would also be careful what you said to the company interviewing you on Tuesday because if you tell them you can leave your current place before the contract is up they may just not hire you, because after all what's stopping you doing it to them.

    Contracting is difficult (even as a temp like you are now), you're only as good as your previous roles and if people started asking for references for you from your current place what do you think they would say? "Yes, he worked here, a bit of a disappointment really as he didn't honour his contract with us".

    If you can get the new company to wait until December for you all the better, otherwise I would probably wait a little while longer so that it's closer to the time you are due to finish at the hospital.

    Sorry for the long post and honestly it's not a rant at you, I just don't want you to suffer unnecessarily.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2010
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  8. soundian

    soundian Gigabyte Poster

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    Some interesting points to ponder from SimonD there.
    Maybe I'm naive as well, but since this is a temp rather than a contract position, surely the employer and the company who pays for his services will understand that a permanent position is obviously much more attractive to the employee. I don't see why they would be disappointed if someone bailed out early citing much better wages and job security as the reasons. That's the risk you take with temps and obviously they are prepared to take that risk otherwise they would have a permanent member of staff doing the job.

    @orangepeeleo
    You don't want to go to any bargaining table without some bargaining chips. Bear in mind that they have a massive "Employers Market" chip to play to unless you have a "Twenty-odd K per year Job Offer" chip to counter it, you're going to come out no better, and perhaps worse, than you went in. Don't even hint you're looking for other jobs until you have a definite offer, and don't even hint to your prospective employers you're going to use that offer as a bargaining chip.
    I don't know what your relationship is with your direct manager at your actual work, but it might be worthwhile having a private, off-the-record chat with him/her. Ask them what the possibilities are of, at the end of the current contract, that things might change to give you more of what you want (job satisfaction seems nailed on (if the terms are better) so that leaves permanency, career progression and salary). As above, don't even hint that you've started looking around for other positions.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+,MCDST,MCTS(680), MCP(270, 271, 272), ITILv3F, CCENT
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  9. orangepeeleo

    orangepeeleo Nibble Poster

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    This my view too so maybe your def not the only naive one around here, its also my wifes view lol

    I think i will have a quiet word with my line manager tomorrow, she is a very approachable person so i dont think she would mind having an off the record chat somewhere, i have emailed my employer last week about the chances of the client taking me on permanently but have heard nothing back so its not like they would be able to say i went behind their backs on the matter, will email again tomorrow, but at the end of the day i am just trying to do whats best for me in the most acceptable and decent way, I'll just ask her if she has heard anything from the boss or knows of any plans to take me on permanently as it is approaching the end of my contract, and although it is a given that it will be renewed contracting is not something i want to be doing long term and i would much rather have a perm position with all the benefits that come with it (career management being top of that list), although i wont make it clear that i am looking for something else it should be obvious that in another month or so i will have to if they cannot give me the security that i want.

    Saying that, i respect Simon's opinions and advice so i have to take notice, maybe its better for me to give it another month before looking for something else, i'm desperate for a pay rise but i'll be on that money some day so i just have to be patient i guess. One thing i will say though, is that do you (Simon) not think that by leaving this job interview then i get myself into a catch 22, where i dont want to be out of a job so i'd take any renewal come december if i never found something else, but then i'm back into another 6 month contract so leaving 2 months into that still gives me the ship jumper image, there has to be a time where i can jump ship and still look respectable, without saying to someone, i'll take your job but can you wait another 2 months for me? should i just start looking in late october with 1.5 months left, so that if i do get an offer i can at least go to my employer and say "just to let you know, i will not be renewing my contract in december, i have been offered another position"??

    I want to make sure that my career in the future is going to be good and i dont jeopardise it with any mistakes now, but having another £400 per month in the present (plus the security and career management to boot) is very hard to ignore.
     
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  10. SimonD

    SimonD Terabyte Poster Moderator

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    The thing is that at this level no one is going to wait more than a month for someone to start a new job (prospective employers can easily get someone else who can start within a month). It's different when you start talking about senior positions (Directors etc) where having a 3 month notice period is common but at a junior level it's just not acceptable. If I were you I would go for the second option and start looking for a new role at the tail end of October, that gives you a couple of weeks to gauge the market and see if you need to accept the renewal or accept a new position elsewhere, one bit of advice tho, hiring really does slow down over that period.

    I would also have been rather hesitent in telling your employer that their client 'would' possibly be interested in hiring you because that is taking money away from them, something no employer likes to see happen. I would also be concerned that they wouldn't extend me because of that (if someone said that to me I wouldn't rehire them because that strengthens the chances that my client would hire them some point down the road, instead I would hire someone new because that way I am not losing out on a sum of money from my client). It's better for the employer to get a little bit of hassle from the client for changing you than it is for them to lose the revenue from placing you or someone like you with the client.

    As my signature says, my opinions are just that, MINE. You can do what you like but as an ex squaddie and having had an IT career for over 12 years now I like to think that my career has gone how you would like yours to go, I don't want you to fall down and as such I am trying to advise you on how I think you should be doing it.

    Obviously if you don't feel that my advise is good for your situation then don't take it but please understand that I do have a certain amount of experience where working in the IT industry stands.
     
    Certifications: CNA | CNE | CCNA | MCP | MCP+I | MCSE NT4 | MCSA 2003 | Security+ | MCSA:S 2003 | MCSE:S 2003 | MCTS:SCCM 2007 | MCTS:Win 7 | MCITP:EDA7 | MCITP:SA | MCITP:EA | MCTS:Hyper-V | VCP 4 | ITIL v3 Foundation | VCP 5 DCV | VCP 5 Cloud | VCP6 NV | VCP6 DCV | VCAP 5.5 DCA
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  11. orangepeeleo

    orangepeeleo Nibble Poster

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    I dont know if i explained properly,

    All through my recruitment and interview process for both the client and my employer, the subject was brought up a few times that although this was only a 6 month contract there was every chance that this would either be a) renewed or b) the client would take me on permanently, i dont know if there is some sort of arrangement between my employer and the client but they do provide quite a few members of the IT dept, off the top of my head its about a 70/30 ratio i would think, and the process of making people perm is quite normal, at the last meeting i went to (about 2 months ago) the boss was talking of plans to take on the 2 telecomms guys who are currently employed by the same company as me, so there must be some sort of agreement in place where they can, and do, do that. When i think about it, i am probably making my employer the least profit out of all the contractors there, as they have 1 3rd line server guy, both the telcomms guys, and 3 network guys that are all probably being charged at a much higher rate, so with it being spoken about before, and with them making so much money from the client anyways from other people, losing me would be like chucking a cup of water out of a bath in terms of how much money they would be losing.

    My email to my employer was not bringing up a taboo subject, it was just me asking about something that was spoken about when i first signed.

    I do value your opinion anyways btw b/c your the only one i know of around here that knows exactly what its like to come out into the real world and be so uneducated on how the real world works, maybe my next move should be some sort of resettlement trainer as i dont think the army prepares you well enough in the slightest, as you may have found out by my wet behind the ears take on IT lol
     
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