Global Warming

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by shambles, Jul 9, 2007.

  1. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    I'm not insulting anyone, everyones entiltled to view, i just stated to Thomasmc that well all be dead before this world expires.
     
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  2. wizard

    wizard Petabyte Poster

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    I'm stepping out of this thread now, as people are quick to leap to their own defence when I haven't even mentioned any names.
     
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  3. drum_dude

    drum_dude Gigabyte Poster

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  4. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    Here in Wales we are experiencing 'Global Wetting'.

    Are the two related?

    The water companies have contacted us to ask us all to turn our hosepipes on to relieve the pressure on the resevoirs and to flush our toilets as often as un-necessary.

    It's great.
     
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  5. shambles

    shambles Guest

    I'm pretty sure I'm not going to change any minds here... :blink

    What about this:

    Q. If the climatologists are right, but we ignore them, what is the worst that can happen?
    A. Our children, or our children's children may witness the beginning of end of the earth.

    Q. If the climatologists are wrong, and we take a load of unnecessary steps to save ourselves, what is the worst thing that can happen?
    A. We will most likely get a few years of economic strife.

    Do the sums... One of the problems we have to deal with here is that by the time we see some real hard evidence that even the non-scientist can accept, it will be too late.

    The thing is, some of the steps we might take are no-brainers. My low-energy lightbulbs are not an inconvenience - they save me money every day. My solar-panel creates hot water for free and saves me money. The insulation in my loft saves me money. My small fuel-efficient car saves me money and is still plenty fast enough for me to have 3 points on my license... There are countless little things I can do to reduce my carbon footprint, and not one of them is an inconvenience or a cost to me.

    Some of the other stuff is more difficult, but a similar principle applies. We rely on oil. And it is running out. Surely it makes sense to reduce our reliance on it now (and help the environment) rather than wait for it to run out and fight over what is left?
     
  6. twizzle

    twizzle Gigabyte Poster

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    So you didnt have to pay for the solar panels? Your loft insulations, was it paid for and installed by you or is it the standard ones in most homes?(which are pretty energy ineffiecnt). Is you small car duel fuel? if not would you pay to convert it to make it better for the envrionment than a standard petrol one?

    I can not afford to do any of these things as my house budget is streched as it is, (specilaly with my g/f being made redundant).

    You can now buy wind turbines at Argos and BnQ, but these cost over a grand or two and i cannot afford the out lay for these even if they will save me money in the long run.
    To be more environment friendly and reduce my carbon foot print means an outlay of cash taht i just can not afford to do in the short term. Now if they were free or subsidised then yes i would consider it.
    Yes we are adding to global warming but we probably added to it back in Victorian times when the industrial revolution began as well. Its not something new and its not something thats gonna stop just by changinga few things now. Global warming is a natrual occurance, we just happen to add to it and also are able to detect it better now than ever before.
     
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  7. shambles

    shambles Guest

    Fair enough, Twizzle - I'll restate...

    When we moved house recently, we extended the mortgage to include the purchase of a solar panel and store, and some insulation. We had a choice, either this, or replace an oil-burning heating system. Total cost came to about £3K including fitting. It does about 70% of our hot water across the year. It'll pay for itself in about 7 years. If we move house, we'll probably get the investment back. The insulation is plenty good enough and an extra - I think £250, or thereabouts. Again, repayment should be quite quick...

    Granted, we found ourselves in the position where we could do it. Not everyone will be. But that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point is, we can all do something, and it isn't going to break us to do what we can do...

    But don't do dual fuel for the environment. It's still fossil fuel. And because it is cheaper, you might be tempted to drive more!

    And avoid B+Q for renewables. A strong wind will rip your chimney off, and the repayment period is way too long, because they are too expensive. Arguably, you might not help the environment much either, depending on the system used.

    I'd dispute that a few small changes will have no effect. Lots of people doing just the lightbulb thing will make a difference...

    Here are some questions. How many vehicles use American roads? What do you think the average fuel consumption figure is for a vehicle built in the USA today? And what is it for Europe? Suppose every vehicle in the USA could return the same figures as those in Europe? How much of a difference would that make?
     
  8. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    I agree that we can (and should) do some things to help reduce energy consumption. But doing it in the name of "global warming" is misplaced, in my opinion.

    No, you won't likely change anyone's opinion about global warming... but you COULD likely change someone's mind about ways to save energy.
     
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  9. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    End of the Earth, or end of mankind?

    The Earth is a tough old bird who has gone through radical changes in the past and is well suited to recovery.

    Mankind on the other hand (despite what we may think of ourselves) is a fragile thing which can't cope with severe temperatures, or indeed being under water.

    It has happened before and in the fullness of time it may happen again.

    The proof will be when they excavate a dinosaur version of a 4x4 jeep and shake their head saying 'will they never learn?'.
     
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  10. shambles

    shambles Guest

    Why do people refuse to take the threat seriously?

    Is it because we don't believe the scientists?

    Or that the threat doesn't concern us directly?

    Or we just don't care?

    Maybe we feel powerless?
     
  11. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    I do take it seriously.
    Doesn't mean you can't have a sense of humour.

    But yes, I do think people feel powerless.
    We always have the attitude that 'somebody else' will sort it out, or why should I make an effort when the people next door aren't?

    Change is inevitable though. Our planet is a bit of a closed system and a change to any one thing is going to affect others. If it's not global warming, it will be the overuse of natural resources, uncontrolled population growth, soil erosion, over fishing, deforestation etc.

    Not that I think any of those things are acceptable, but it is such a huge issue I can't see how it is all going to change.
     
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  12. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    That's it for me. The data I've seen doesn't stand up... there are waaaaay too many assumptions being made.

    I'm not looking to convince you... so I'm not going to even attempt to throw any data out there. I'm simply stating why I've come to the opinion I have.
     
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  13. twizzle

    twizzle Gigabyte Poster

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    I think thats right. Most people don't know what to believe when a scientist states a "fact". After all one minute we're told this foods bad for you then get told that the same food is good for you at a later date. How many things have we been told over the years are wrong only to be told by someone else doing more research that the same thing is right??
    How can the ordinary person know wether what we do affects global warming when even the simple facts get contradicted?

    Our scientific knowledge, while better than ever, is still based around a load of assumtions. If any of these were proven to be wrong our world would suddnely stop and have to be re thought about!

    Yes climate change is a problem because we notice its effects and dont like them. But is it due to us or nature, how can anyone be 100% sure? If the effects were noticably good for us you wouldnt even think about doing anything to stop them.
     
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  14. drum_dude

    drum_dude Gigabyte Poster

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    Shambles, in your argument you seem to blur the line between energy efficiency and global warming - you use the limited resources argument to somehow back up your global warming opinions?

    What I don't understand is that you will not acknowledge those (99.9% of those who posted) who agree 100% with your energy conservation opinion. Yes I do agree that we ALL can do something to move away from fossil fuels but driving small engined cars and using special lightbulbs ain't gonna do diddly squat but line the pockets of the manufacturers! What we need is global govt action i.e. billions into hydrogen power, billions into cold nuclear fusion (NOT FISSION) etc etc! But they don't! Instead they tax us for "Damaging the planet!" so they can fund binge drinking rehab courses etc etc!!
     
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  15. shambles

    shambles Guest

    Sorry JonnyMX - I wasn't having a dig at you!

    Your previous comment was fine, I just didn't have a reply for it - except maybe that although I agree that the earth has been through loads of changes and mankind is only a recent update (or are we a virus?), I was hoping that we might maybe leave it as we found it... The thing about huge issues is that they ultimately come back to people like us. We individually have very little power, but as a mass movement there is nothing we cannot achieve. It takes a zillion raindrops to make a decent thunderstorm and all that... I firmly believe that if we begin to shuffle in the right direction, we will soon have a change on our hands.

    The question is: Do we want to make that change?

    I know these arguments are hard. I understand there are high emotions and bad feeling sometimes. I completely get the idea that we don't want name-calling. But we wouldn't be human without them, and I'm really depressed that someone won't even argue their case. Progress comes from conflict doesn't it? Isn't this important enough to argue over?
     
  16. shambles

    shambles Guest

    drum_dude...

    I'm saying it wrong. There are loads of good reasons to conserve energy and resources, regardless of the truth or not of global warming. It's obviously pointless burning 20L of gasoline to get to work when 5L will do the job just as well...

    I tend to blur the two subjects because I see energy conservation as one of the main steps we can take towards reducing global warming. The less carbon we burn keeping warm and making stuff, the less CO2 we produce, and the cooler the world will stay.

    How we do things is complicated. The government uses tax as an incentive to make us consider the amount of energy we use (I'm lying - they only do it to get more money!). The government could use tax as an incentive. I'm not sure we have time to develop any high-tech solutions like fusion. For the moment, we might be stuck with fission - and how popular will that be?

    At the end of the day, we need to consume less. Small cars and cold cathode lightbulbs do just that. But it still won't be enough...
     
  17. drum_dude

    drum_dude Gigabyte Poster

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    yep agree with you 100%!:D
     
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  18. shambles

    shambles Guest

    @ twizzle...

    You can't. Unless you want to go back to school, redo a whole bunch of exams and retrain as a climate scientist.

    But what you can do, and should do, is pay attention to who is saying what, and why.

    The vast majority of climatologists say this argument is over. The petrochemical industry says it isn't. Most European countries are introducing legislation aimed at reducing our carbon footprint. Even George Bush is making more sympathetic noises nowadays having previously scuppered Kyoto. Take your pick.

    The thing is, no-one wants to do this because it is going to hurt.

    It's almost exactly like giving up smoking. The time to quit smoking is before you start getting serious health problems - wait until you start coughing, and it's too late to prevent the damage. Although you may be able to survive for years with reduced health. Leave it too long and you get cancer. 'But smoking is lovely and calms me down'. Rubbish. Smoking is an addiction that costs you a fortune and will kill you.

    Our addiction to shiny things made of fossil fuels will do exactly the same to us. If we wait to see the evidence fully realised, it will be way too late...
     
  19. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    ...or because some people still believe that we aren't the cause of the minor temperature increase.
     
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  20. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    Anyone else read 'State of Fear' by Michael Crichton (the Jurassic Park author in case you don't know him)?
     
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