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Fractional Reserve Banking

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by drum_dude, Jan 8, 2009.

  1. drum_dude

    drum_dude Gigabyte Poster

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    Hi (apologies to those who know about the subject I'm posting about)

    I think it's about time I shared with you all a not well known system that we're all part of! It is called the Fractional Reserve System (Fractional Reserve Banking) aka MONEY. This system or way of banking is never taught at schools and was never taught to me whilst I studied Economics along with IT during my college days.

    So what is the big deal? Well the big deal is that this system is responsible for the what we see today:

    * Poverty
    * Famine
    * Crime (aspects of i.e. theft, drug addiction etc)
    * Bankruptcy
    * Interest
    * Inflation
    * Deflation
    * Exploitation of natural resources
    * Employment to Unemployment
    * Boom and Bust
    * Speculation
    * War

    and finally

    * DEBT!

    This system is completly flawed and it is only now that its flaws are becoming apparent. The concept of creating money out of nothing is alien to most...but not to the banking system. Why does a run on a bank equal bad news? The Fractional Reserve System. Why is paying back your debts a bad thing? The Fractional Reserve System. If everyone paid back their debts they would be no money in the system...the banking system would collapse! Everything is based on debt! No debt = no money, no jobs, no food and no life!

    This is not about conspiracy, politics or anything else. The Fractional Reserve System has been used for years and is reality! Understanding this system will make you realise that WHO you vote for makes no difference. You cannot vote this system out! This system relys on debt and GDP (Gross Domestic Product) growth which equals further exploitation of natural resources that leads us to WAR! All these 'Green' policies we hear of mean nothing! Money (FRS) will never allow unprofitable and easily available energy to be available. Just like money will never allow the abolition of poverty, war, famine etc etc etc...

    How does it affect you personally? The FRS determines your quality of life! You have savings? The FRS can ruin them - the IR cuts in the UK are doing just that! This system - through inflation - can ruin your savings too! Once you realise that there isn't enough principle money in the pool to pay back debt + interest then you'll realise why bankruptcies etc happen. The FRS determines whether or not you have a job!

    Unelected and unknown people make decisions of which you and the politicians have no say in whatsoever! Who are they? I don't know who they are but I know who the organisations are:

    * Bank of England
    * Federal Reserve
    * IMF
    * World Bank
    * European Central Bank

    ...and so on!

    When the sh1t hits the fan - like it is now - YOU cannot vote these people/organisations out of office. Does that make sense? No it doesn't! And it never will!

    This is probably the whackiest post I've ever posted on CF but I have been debating/researching this subject for quite a while on other Economics based Internet forums.

    I've found quite a good video that explains this system and its beginnings. It is located at google video:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279

    The video is 47 minutes in length but I would ask that you take the time to view it's content.

    I look forward to reading your comments but remember this isn't about whether Obama is better then Bush or Brown is better the Cameron. The subject goes deeper then that...much deeper! The FRS is slavery: Economic Slavery.

    Cheers for reading!
     
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  2. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    That's a nice little video. None of it was news to me as I've studied Economics in the past, but it is amazing how little people know or care about the financial house of cards that we call 'free market economy'. This is the reason that voting for anybody nowadays is utterly, utterly pointless - and has been (in this country at least) since that b**** Thatcher ruined the UK so completely, destroying any realistic socialist alternative along the way in the eighties.

    Laughably, my boss was chipper this morning when he stated that there are 'signs we're coming out of recession and may be through the worst of it'. Maddeningly, this erudite, otherwise intelligent man actually believes it too. We won't see the end of this recession for at least two years - maybe even more if, as has happened regularly throughout history in such times, we have a large scale (global or pan-European) conflict.

    I think everybody just needs to do what I did one day about ten years ago when i was a trade union official - wake up in the morning realising that there is absolutely f*** all you can do to change people's attitudes and, as a result, nothing you can do to change 'the system' and just get on with it.
     
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  3. greenbrucelee
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    This is a good thread.

    I am going back to when I went to university. I was completely naive I had no knowledge or experience of handling my own money, thought that when I left uni I would get a job that paid well so I wouldn't have to worry about any debt I got myself into. I did understand the money needed paid back though, I just thought I wouldn't have a problem.

    I think managing money and the whole aspect of economics should be included as a main subject in the curriculumso people who were naive such as I was would understand how everything is.

    Banks and their directors should take a lot of the blame because of the situation we are in now because they have been for a long time just lending, lending, lending to anyone that comes along and when that person can't payback the money then there has to be a breaking point like there is now.

    What about these schemes where people can get IVAs and 70% of the debt is written off, the money is coming from somewhere and it's most likely the tax payer but where does that money go in the end? in some tossers back pocket.

    There are also a hell of a lot people getting into debt on purpose then filling for bankrupcty as it doesn't last aslong as it used to, this money also needs to be recouped from somewhere.

    The government and previous ones have borrowed to the hilt and what do us lot see? nothing apart from some lazy ****** who thinks because he/she has a seat at westminster and has never done a real days work before that desrve the money they get paid.

    As said it's very unlikely that things will change regardless of which party is in power because the money situation all boils down to one thing in my opinion and that's greed.

    I agree with Zeb we are looking at about 2 years of this from what I have looked at.

    BTW this reminds me of a Story from Noggin the Nog where some c**** invented money and whole land of Nog got into **** because the economy so they banned money and beat the **** up :)
     
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  4. drum_dude

    drum_dude Gigabyte Poster

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    Thanks for the input guys.

    Since approx 2000 something quite interesting has been going on in the world: the property boom. In the early days of this boom things were good...too good. Govts run by the likes of Thatcher, Major, Brown, Clinton, Bush, Blair etc etc made things real easy for this boom to take place i.e. deregulation. That's all govts have really done over the past 30 years! To allow the financial system to play havoc with OUR lives. Now back to the 'Property Boom'. In the early days people in the know made a killing, they knew they could buy a property, sit on it for 6 months and sell it for a higher return then they would get from the stock market or high interest savings. Things were good...

    Then EVERYONE jumped on the bandwagon! I can only compare it to the discovery of File-Sharing i.e. a certain few knew about it for a while then all of a sudden everyone knew about it and the next thing you know it all goes pear shaped. Tis human nature! With regards to the property boom, those in the know silently pulled out an moved onto other things, however; the sheeple got stuck in! 90%, 100% and 125% mortgages, subprime mortgages and BTL mortgages were all the rage! But where was the money coming from? Who cared? As long as I could have it NOW that was all that mattered! People laughed at those who warned of what was coming...the IMF eyed up the uk - now ripe for a loan - with a warning many years ago! All of a sudden owning your own home had become a right and not a priviledge!

    So why did it go wrong?

    The money supply simply dried up! Think about it, if banks create money from nothing but charge interest on that 'nothing' then where does the money come from to pay the interest? It has to come from other money that has been created by other banks! There is not enough money (principle) in the pool to cover paying back the money created and the interest owed! People will lose, people will suffer and those (the sheeple) that got into Property Investment will lose their previous returns FASTER then they gained them! Those that bought a house as a home...well...it ain't looking to rosey for them I'm afraid. And what's in it for the banks? Well this money they created from nothing all of a sudden turns into an asset: a house. Strange that?

    So lets look at the recent IR cuts in the UK:

    * Those with SVR Mortgages THINK that things are good because their rates are very low. But the currency is being bashed too and this country heavily relies on imports for food and fuel. What they save on mortgage interest will be swallowed up by having to pay more pounds to buy the basics: food and fuel.

    * Savings, the notion of saving has been kicked out of this country ever since a 20% deposit plus 3.5 x your salary was no longer a requirement for a mortgage. Now that IRs are so low people are will be even more reluctant to save! Those who rely on their savings to live, for instance, the man I heard on 5 Live whose elderly aunt in a care home relies on the interest from the proceedings of her house sale to pay for her care, are now seeing that income drop by more then 50%! All for the sake of those who overstretched themselves with debt? Well it's easy to blame the Location, Location, Location sheeple BUT the system doens't care for savers! Debt is at the core!

    * Deflation: yes it will most likely happen. The BoE have cut IRs so much and so often that they run the risk of a huge delayed reaction hitting them in the bollocks! So deflations means low prices? Great...but we import the important stuff...damn! It also means no pay-rises...more like pay-cuts! But the kicker is this: your debts stay the same! You have to work harder and longer to get the money to pay them! Bah!

    * Inflation: Interest Rates will most likely go through roof once deflation sets in and the money printing will go into overdrive aka Quantative Easing! Yippie, pay-rises again...followed by...oh no my mortgage interest rate has gone through the roof! I think Interest rates of double digits are a distinct possibility and this will be the final nail in the coffin for UK manufacturing. It will happen AFTER Brown is voted back in. All this bail-out nonsense and IR cuts is just to ensure a 2nd term in office for him. This will be all just in time for those coming out of 5 year fixed rate mortgages...another crisis!

    * Unemployment: well that's now working it's way through the system. Banking, Construction and Retail are always the first to be hit! Manufacturing - what's left of it - is getting a kicking too.



    You see none of this is over by a long shot. They talk of recession? My 'money' is on a depression on a scale far worse then the 30s...and we all know what the result of that was: WAR!

    Sorry for the gloom and doom but I do believe that people just don't realise the reality of the situation.
     
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  5. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    people are doing what I did when I got myself into major debt.

    They are burrying their heads in the sand and hoping it will go away. Well it isn't.

    I am not sure what the solution is but it isn't dropping the VAT.
     
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  6. drum_dude

    drum_dude Gigabyte Poster

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    Well there is an interesting story that originates from the US about a chap whose house was about to be repossessed. It all happened in the 60s and is apparently 'hush hush'. I'm yet to find a solid reference to it but the story goes like this:

    A chap bought himself a property via a mortgage from his local bank. He lost his job and fell behind on his payments. He was taken to court and found that the one argument he could put forward was the fact that the bank had created the money for his house purchase from nothing! The contract was not fulfilled because no 'actual' money had changed hands.

    After some further investigations the judge summoned the president of the bank to court. The bank's president attended court and was asked to clarify the creating of money from nothing. The president explained the Fractional Reserve System to the judge. The ruling of the case from the judge was that the chap could keep the house with judge stating "only god can create something from nothing".

    How true is that? I do not know...but the story was discussed on a certain conspiracy program that I'd rather not mention due to it's other content. But if I do find evidence of such a case I will post it here on CF.
     
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  7. westernkings

    westernkings Gigabyte Poster

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    You have been watching Zeitgeist addendum I take ?

    it's a good film, just filled with very bold statements from rather unreliable sources, it describes how the fractional reserve systems works in an accurate but very general manner.

    As much as I am completely against the banking systems and as much as I despise it, I wouldn't waste your time trying to convince people to do something about it, most just do not care.

    Think of Zeitgeist addendum in a similar light to the speech JFK made about monolithic conspiracies for example, the speech was about communism and how the media should not be bent by governments and so on, yet, a bunch of nutters edited the speech, cut out some of the paragraphs and shortened the speech to a 3 minute seminar and labelled it "The Speech that killed JFK", telling everyone he was talking about the NWO and Illuminati when in fact he was on about communism.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN4itNeh-pE

    There is the edited version,

    Transcript of Speech

    See what some good editing can do ?

    Plus the fact the guy that made The Zeitgeist films is rolling in money at last reports from the people that bought the DVD's from him and it is all a bit fishy.

    and on top of that, the fractional reserve system works, it has flaws but it works and any change would take widespread poverty and unemployment for decades before a new system was up and working.

    There is not enough gold in the world to offset the money so that cannot be used as a base for all money.

    Just drop the debt and legalise weed, jobs a gooden.

    As you have just said, the money dried up ? for before that, you said the money doesn't exist in the first place ? so how can the money dry up ?

    It is all a load of bollocks not worth thinking about, nothing will change, so suck it up and enjoy the good times, then make sure you can feed your self in the bad, just enjoy the life you're given.
     
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  8. onoski

    onoski Terabyte Poster

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    Nice and very informative thread drum dude, however true the article sometimes individuals have to learn the hard way. I was a careless spender with credit card and my own money until reality hit and was barely surviving financially.

    Rewind three years ago managed to clear my debts and now spend unless I have the money or the item in question is needed before I purchase.

    I also think parents should teach their kids from an early age on how to spend money wisely. This would then help to break the idea of buying in the name of it's cheap or because my peers own one hence I want one as well mentality.

    Thanks for sharing:)
     
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  9. westernkings

    westernkings Gigabyte Poster

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    Yea, money management really needs to be taught in schools, I went into my bank for a simple £50 overdraft, i walked out with 2k in credit (They just said (We can do this while your here)) and being 18 at the time, in college, I just didn't have the nerve to say no to the salesman, not as if he was asking, he just said sign here and here is your cards sir. I'm half way out of debt now and I can't wait to be proper out of it and the only bills I have to pay is rent and my phone bill. instead of paying a 3rd of my wages to the banks.
     
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  10. craigie

    craigie Terabyte Poster

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    Make the system work for you.

    There are things called good debt and bad bebt. A simple explanation of this is as follows:

    Bad Debt - something which isnt working for you e.g. car loan, house mortgage, that costs you money on a regular basis but you get nothing back for it. Even your own house with a mortgage doesnt work for you as you have to have somewhere to live and it costs you money on a monthly basis even after the mortgage is paid. Think heat, electricity, water etc.

    Good Debt - something which is earning you money e.g. a buy to let property (with enough equitity) to earn you a passive income after paying your mortgage.

    I have both, but my goal is to have enough income coming in passivley, so I'm choosing to work, and not having to work.

    At the moment, I have gotten 1/5 towards my goal (1/5 monthly income being brought in passibley not from earned income), which is pretty good, but I have alot more work today.
     
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  11. westernkings

    westernkings Gigabyte Poster

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    Yea, I used a low limit credit card (£250) every month for my general lunch spending whilst at work. I put my lunch money onto it every month in full and pay £5 for in interest, but it is improving my credit rating as it shows as 00000000, so kind of using it to improve my credit rating rather than just leaving the money in my account, I pay 95% of the card off every month, spend it, and repeat.
     
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  12. drum_dude

    drum_dude Gigabyte Poster

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    I have watched it but as you say its discussion on FRS is too general - just like everything else it discusses. The video I posted goes much deeper into the FRS.
     
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  13. drum_dude

    drum_dude Gigabyte Poster

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    Firstly, this is not about Zeitgeist or conspiracies or JFK for that matter. It is about the Fractional Reserve system which is fact. So apart from the story I mentioned, can we keep away from conspiracy theory because the next thing that will happen is that UFOs or 9/11 will suddenly pop up. Also, can we not get into personal micro-economic discussions either? Finding out about how you pay for your lunch is great but it doesn't fit in with the topic that is up for discussion.

    Lets keep this discsussion based on fact: the Fractional Reserve Banking.

    As I said, yes the money has dried up BECAUSE there is not enough in the POOL to repay PRINCIPLE plus INTEREST! Yes the money did not exist in the first place BUT it was created from nothing and was in circulation i.e. your pay, what you withdraw, coins and notes! When you pay towards your debt the principle payment - the capital payment - is not taken into account...it vanishes out of the system! It is the INTEREST that banks are after...what they earn from creating.......nothing! With the additon of Interest the pool gets smaller and smaller.

    So with the above said, there is not enough money in the pool to pay back both! Principle payments vanish from the system and the outcome of this is: bankruptcy, defaults, misery etc etc. Why do you think the govt is pumping so much money into the banks? It's because the money supply has dried up...people are defaulting on their debts, banks can no longer keep up with their own obligations to pay investors the interest collected on flogged mortgages and to pay savers their interest too!

    The Fractional Reserve System does not work and is the cause of poverty and unemployment.
     
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  14. drum_dude

    drum_dude Gigabyte Poster

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    You see, most of you are coming back with the view to 'Paying off your Debts'. But like I said, if everyone did that the whole system would collapse. Debt needs to be their at all times.

    With regards to good debts and bad debts; I'm sorry but there is no such thing. You lose your job and all your debts become bad. Your house drops in value - predictions based on 50% falls are now becoming mainstream - so how does that become a good debt? Equity wiped out quicker then it was gained...ALL money that never existed but was based on debt. The amount of repos hitting the auctions - failed BTLs - is staggering! A lot of these properties are being auctioned at 50% less then their 'apparent' value.
     
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  15. craigie

    craigie Terabyte Poster

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    Why if you loose your job, all your debt becomes bad?. This is not the case, only the house your live in is bad debt as it will always be a liabiltiy with the assoctiated running costs. As you recieve no passive income from it (unless you have a lodger).

    I think you need to re read my post. There is 'good debt' another simple example of this is as follows:

    You borrow £50,000 at a rate of 5% to invest into a business as a silent partner equating to 10% of the overall equity.

    The business then pays you a return of 10% per annum for the initial investment.

    Your outgoing on the £50,000 are £2,500 per annum, and your income is £5000 per annum. Plus your capital stake could increase if the business grows.

    You can get into lots of what if this or what if that happens. But thats the whole point, to make an informed investment based around your investment criteria.
     
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  16. craigie

    craigie Terabyte Poster

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    I do not think the that the Fractional Reserve System is to 'blame' completely.

    If the banks had no one to lend to, then we would not be in this issue, we have generated this mess and the banks have been more than happy to accomodate us.
     
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  17. westernkings

    westernkings Gigabyte Poster

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    I'm going to remind you of the times before the fractional reserve system, you think poverty is a FRS issue ? think before, when unless you had a slab of silver, you starved. Poverty is nothing compared to what it used to be.

    And the money supply is infinite, it is created by the central bank out of thin air, so if it created out of nothing, there is nothing for it to dry up. The government just keeps lending from the central bank and it keeps going.

    You're drawing your ideas word for word from Zeitgeist addendum which is filled with socialist propaganda.

    You say it is built in the system, you may be right, but it isn't built into the regular consumers life. If you did not borrow money you could not afford to pay back, then there would be no regular joes going bankrupt.

    People going bust is a direct result of their own shortcomings and short sightedness.

    Remember, the credit crunch is not caused by the fractional reserve system, it is caused by banks lending money to people who cannot afford to pay it back.

    if you have responsible borrowing and lending then the FRS works reasonably well. Consumers and bankers need to curb their greed.

    The bubble filles, then bursts, then fills, then bursts. that is the price we pay for just a great lifestyle during the good years. 2 years of crunch for 15 of luxury ? suits me. If people saved and realised this is a bubble that bursts on a regular cycle, then all would be well and we would all be a lot more prepared.

    People just need to use the systems and stop being sheep to the system.

    The world has moved on since the gold standard, we are all a lot richer because of this system, the gold standard would make us all a lot poorer.
     
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  18. drum_dude

    drum_dude Gigabyte Poster

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    I think you need to re-read my post. There is no such thing as good debt! What you mention is based on a fragile system that you have no control over. Once you trip up on interest payments then you're in trouble. I suppose in your case that'll would be known as 'a good debt gone bad'. BTL was thought of as being a good debt...that was until the Bradford and Bingley was nationalised!

    My friend's mother did exactly what you mentioned above! Released equity from her property - she'd paid off the mortgage prior to that - in order to invest in a water purification technology company. That was in 2000. Her house has now been repossessed and is up for sale at 40% less then it's current market value...it ain't shifting. What was a good debt in 2000 is now a life chaning debt that has ruined my mate's inheritence and his mum's quality of living!

    And then there is Madoff...informed investment? Investment criteria? There is more of this to come...and it's all down to this crazy system!
     
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  19. westernkings

    westernkings Gigabyte Poster

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    Well don't borrow what you cannot afford to pay back ? that simple, responsible lending and borrowing.

    I was exactly the same as you after watching that movie, it is such a short sharp shock on the system, but eventually you will come around and realise, it works, and it isn't the devil.
     
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  20. craigie

    craigie Terabyte Poster

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    All business start off with a intial capital in some sort of loan. Some businesses succeed, others do not. Where you choose to invest your money and how is down to you. You have the control of your money.

    The old saying goes 'dont have all your eggs in one basket'. Which is the best advice. Spread your risk by diversification, invest your money into many areas such as:

    - Cash
    - Underlying assets such as Gold
    - Invest in businesses whether it be directly or via shares. Again across continents and different business segments.
    - Invest in bonds, again across and different business segments
    - Invest in property and diversify.

    By doing this it doesnt matter as much if one area is going down, as normally another is going up.
     
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