Does GW want a fight with Russia or what?

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by greenbrucelee, Jun 6, 2007.

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  1. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    So... it's OK for the Muslims to do what they do because of what the Christians did about 900 years ago? :blink

    I don't know of any Christians today who think it's OK to kill because someone doesn't believe in their way of life. Please.

    I never said America does everything right. I don't think America needs to be the world's babysitter. But neither do I think we should sit around and watch evil occur. You and I are obviously going to have a different definition of evil.
     
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  2. Headache

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    Okay. So they brought down the WTC because they knew we were gonna invade Iraq later.

    Right. It all makes sense now.
     
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  3. greenbrucelee
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    Yes interpretation of the Koran has a lot do with it, but its more the fact that we in west have it so easy and we want to make the world just like us

    You get someone who is a good talker, people listen to him/her then they tell their interpretation of a particluar holy book lets say tilly the dog, the people belive cos they believe in him/her. Theres a bot who will do what you say has been created.

    And if this good talker says tilly the dog has commanded me to destroy all cats then if the belief is that strong the people will follow
     
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  4. BosonMichael
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    I could care less if the rest of the world is like us or not. They make their choices; we make ours.

    All that said... I must simply disagree with you that all religion is wrong. I'm a follower of Jesus Christ, and I don't feel that gays should be persecuted. I believe homosexuality is a sin, but I don't believe gays should be persecuted for it. If God judges them, that's between them and God. I can only state my belief and allow them to choose as they will.
     
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  5. BosonMichael
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    The illogic is strong in this one, eh, Headache? :blink
     
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  6. Headache

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    The funny thing is, I keep hearing this same argument over and over again from different people. Somebody even said the same thing on TV the other day. It's like if they repeat it often enough, suddenly it would become true. Really cheeses me off sometimes.
     
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  7. BosonMichael
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    Like the "separation of church and state" that really doesn't exist in the Constitution. It's been repeated so much that people actually BELIEVE IT, even though they can read through the Constitution for themselves and see there's no such provision.

    I'd better stop... I'm giving myself an ulcer. :(
     
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  8. stuPeas

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    I too don't think that all religion is wrong. As far as I can tell, the underlying message in a religion is to love other people. It seems to be the way that people judge their own GROUPS beliefs to be right (and others wrong) that is the problem.

    I don't need a bible to tell me how to treat other people, I find that my own morality and values achieve this. I also don't need to believe in an afterlife in HEAVEN, that is not to say that I don't believe that some other form of existence is possible.

    These points tend to make my existence more "individualistic" in nature, in that I don't have to identify with a group. Religion, on the other hand, has the opposite effect. It creates a group mentality. This is, in itself, not a bad thing, but depends on the function of the group itself. In a religious group, it seems that reinforcing the individuals whole view of reality is the overriding purpose of the group!! This, understandably, creates a defensive stance toward other "non-believers" (self preservation works for internal, as well as physical well being).

    I could describe my view of life as a "personal" religion, but because it belongs to me, then it is "fluid" in that it can change to accept new ways of thinking. The religious "group" however does not have this ability (its rules are set in stone), because some would accept change and others not.

    So to my mind, the underlying principles of a religion are not necessarily bad, it is the way that we, as humans tend toward "group belief". If the bible were a secret book that you lived by, but never told anyone else that you had read it, then you would be less resistant to change, and would probably be more accepting of others religions (maybe even incorporating bits into your own).



    What was the question again..........?
     
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  9. Headache

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    While I was watching the Democratic presidential hopefuls debating each other the other day, I started wondering what would happen if one of them actually won. Well, for sure, America will be out of Iraq in less than a year.

    If you thought there's anarchy and bloodshed over there right now, you just wait until then.
     
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  10. BosonMichael
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    Sounds like you've been in some bad churches. :blink It's certainly caused you to have a negative view about how they operate.

    Personally, I don't feel I'm part of a group mentality at all... I choose to believe the Bible because that's what I choose to believe, not because everyone else around me chooses to believe it. If anything, the only reason I gravitate to other believers is because they *already* believe similarly to me, not because I get sucked into what they believe.
     
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  11. stuPeas

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    Yet again you totally misunderstand what i say.

    At no point do i say anything about the CHURCH, never, not one time, not even a hint!!!

    I refer to how RELIGION has an effect on HUMANS.

    Oh, and Ive never had a bad experience with a church, Its like I said, but will say again, Religion is not bad in itself!!

    If you believe that the CHURCH and religion are one in the same, then It becomes apparently clear why you don't understand my points. :D
     
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  12. BosonMichael
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    I do believe that most churches practice some sort of religion. Churches are religious groups, by and large. If not, then what are churches for? BINGO tournaments? :D heehee!

    Allow me to understand. You say that people that follow religion subscribe to group thinking. Do you believe that people who attend church also subscribe simply to "group thinking" rather than individual thinking?
     
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  13. greenbrucelee
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    I didnt say they new we were going to invade Iraq!

    What I said was they (lets call them insurgents for now) dont want to be told by people they dont believe in what to do, and because we are meddling in affairs that really nothing to do with us then thats why they fight back.

    Yes what happend on 9/11 and all other attacks on innocent people is evil but thats the only way they think they can get their message across.

    I respect you BM for being Christian it isnt my place to say that what you beleive is wrong but if you read some of my earlier posts, who taught you the way of christianity I am guessing your parents and their parents probably told them and so on and so on.

    But who is to say that whoever the first person in your family to learn about christianity didnt mis-interperate it.

    Has anyone ever read the Bible and thought, Jesus Christ didnt write this some other people did who can say that they havent mis-interperated what was said by Jesus. I have.

    But your belief is your belief and I respect you for that.

    And I respect anyone who is muslim and belives in the Koran and the prophet muhamed but I dont respect anyone who uses viloence in the name of their religious belief
     
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  14. greenbrucelee
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    From my point of view its the people running these religion that cause the problems. Why is it that religious people are always concerned with sex.

    for example, no sex before your married, no sex with someone of the same sex as you.

    Why should anyone care if someone is gay or someone has sex before marriage. Anyway what about all the Catholic priests with young boys they are not following what god wants or have i misinterperated it
     
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  15. stuPeas

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    I'll get back to you on this in a while Michael, Ive just burned my sons dinner because of writing in the petition thread. Needless to say thet i feel it is a bit more complex than that.
     
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  16. fortch

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    Hey, bro, you really should do a little reading and contemplation before typing. You seem to contradict in every other post :blink

    Religion, to me, is of the people. Their creation. Likewise, when clergy abuse children, it's their own perversity. Way too many people look to evil and think because someone cries "God!" then it has to do with our creator. Absolutely not. What happened in the crusades was man's doing, not God's. When Father Shamus fondles little Johnny, it's not directed by God, regardless of what the sinner says. Far too many atrocities have been performed in the name of God that one should really look at the act involved, and come to their own conclusions.

    What, we can't judge? Judge, lest ye be judged? Popular, but untrue. Even Jesus said to judge a tree by it's fruit. Similarly, judge a person by their actions, not by what they say. Like BM, I am also a follower of Christ, and will judge an act of evil or injustice to be just that. I hesitate to term myself a 'Christian', if only for the negative connotations that some people target with labeling.
     
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  17. greenbrucelee
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    That quote where said I too dont believe all religion is wron was fron stupeas quote I accidently knock the end quote bit, so it actually look like I wrote it.

    The idea of religion is fine with me its the people running it who are wrong, I am sorry if sounded like I was dissing religions
     
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  18. greenbrucelee
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    See what I am getting at is yes we all know that what acts of evil have been perpetrated by Osama and buddies but no-one seems to say what we have done is wrong, it mayl ook right in our eyes but it may look wrong in other peoples eyes because of their belief.
     
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  19. BosonMichael
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    My parents are Christian, but they're not what I'd call "practicing Christians". We never went to church unless we were visiting my grandmother. I was exposed to Christianity when I was young, but I learned about it and accepted it on my own, not because someone said that's what I have to do. And as I've gotten older, I continually check my belief system and ensure that I believe what I believe because of ME and my relationship with Jesus Christ... not because someone told me what to do. Neither my parents, nor my grandparents, nor the first Christian in my family had anything to do with it.

    Sure, countless people have read the Bible and thought that it was not divinely inspired. I believe it to be so. But that's my belief based on faith. I can't force someone to believe something they have no faith in, and that's the key. Either you have faith in it, or you don't.
     
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  20. stuPeas

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    A church is a building, or sometimes the word is used to refer to the organization that manages the resources available to its "believers" so that they can practice the doctrines set out in a "religion"

    A religion is a documented set of beliefs that an individual or group live by (sometimes choosing which rules to obey and ignore)

    I could, indeed, play ping-pong in a church (the "building definition"), if they had a table. I could not, however, play ping-pong in a "religion", (but i bet you will rack you brains to find an example of how you COULD :biggrin )

    further, I could not pray in a "religion", or send a donation to the "catholic religion".

    As for the "group" issue, I think "subscribe" may the wrong word. I think that there is a "shared mentality" (whether conscious or not) between the followers of a religion, especially on emotive issues. I am not saying that believers are "drones", of course they hold individual views in various aspects of life, just not the aspects that are the foundations of their religion.

    I don't think that actually "attending" church makes a difference to this mentality (you could NEVER attend church and still have the shared mentality just by knowing that you are not the ONLY believer). Although "attending" church will probably amplify the feeling that the "shared mentality" is correct (There must be a god, look how many people are in my church who believe it to) .

    I'm not suggesting that there is nothing else going on here, (you could attend church to meet your friends), but I do really believe that this shared mentality is present, even if subconscious. Indeed, this "feeling of togetherness"( group mentality) is not restricted to religion, it is present (to a lesser degree) in every part of life (one example is CF).

    Nor am I saying that the "shared mentality" is bad. Many people find a "piece of mind "(psychological wellbeing) that they previously lacked, by "finding religion".

    What I am saying (and its only a theory), is that the very fact that you belong to a PARTICULAR group, means that you will evaluate (consciously or not) other groups as (overall) being inferior (otherwise you will simply join them instead).

    I, being an "independent" as it were, do not have to make these evaluations, and base my decisions on experience and not on some documented rules. The way I interact with people is base 100% on my experience of them and my OWN morals and values, not because in the back of my mind I feel I may go to hell.

    Once again, Religion helps allot of people to live better lives, but it also has the ability to make its "members" intolerant toward others that do not believe.

    Not EVERYONE, not ALL THE TIME.

    Stu :biggrin
     
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