Why choose atheism?

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by fortch, Jun 8, 2007.

  1. BosonMichael
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    Not sure what you mean by Christians always answering #2 as Yes... *None* of us mortal Christians are an accurate reflection of Him and His desires. We try, but we all fail.
     
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  2. BosonMichael
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    I can't put it any better than Trip did. I can only provide examples to help explain my thoughts.

    Everything God does has a purpose. If I were to suddenly die today, why should God allow that to happen? Perhaps my death will lead many more to Him. Perhaps my death will enable my wife or my sons to meet someone who they could help lead to an understanding of Jesus. In any event, there would be a reason that my mortal mind simply cannot begin to understand.

    There is a couple at my church who are involved in the Christian music industry (tons of them around Nashville, as you might imagine). They tried and tried to have a baby, but every time they would get pregnant, she would miscarry. Finally, they became pregnant and did NOT lose the baby. A few months before the baby was to be born, the doctors gave the parents-to-be a warning that the baby might not make it. The church prayed and prayed for the baby's life. On Christmas Day, the baby was born alive, and his parents got to hold him. A few hours later, he died.

    Why? Why would God do this to them? They faithfully serve Him! Why would he answer their prayers, just to take their child away from them a few hours later? The pastors in the church said that perhaps the baby was born to help strengthen her music ministry - music tends to be most forceful and powerful when written (and performed) in times of great grief and sorrow.

    A few days after the baby died, they got a call from a stranger who wanted to know if they would adopt a orphaned baby from overseas. Keep in mind that this couple had not indicated to anyone that they were interested in adoption, nor had they contacted any adoption agencies. They agreed, and the newly born baby was in their arms quickly. I could see the tears well up in their eyes as she sang a song to her new baby in front of the church. Perhaps this was God's plan... or perhaps there's something even larger that none of us can see.

    I don't pretend to have an inside track on what God knows. But I don't have to... I merely have to allow God to do His work, and be open to following whatever plan He has for my life. It seems to have worked out quite well for me and my family thus far. All that I have, I owe to Him.

    Quarky, the best I can tell you is that God gives me belief in Him. I've seen His hand at work my entire life. Some may dismiss everything as fate, or fortune, or coincidence. But I have faith that there's more than that. When I studied Chemistry and Physics for my degree, and saw all the different intricate relationships between particles... saw that the placement and numbers of the particles in an atom are what give an element color... and not just that it worked, but how it all worked... I was absolutely amazed. Although I was already a Christian by that point, seeing such amazing order and design in the universe simply strengthened my faith.

    Again, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But if I'm wrong, the "accident" of our existence would be just as amazing as (if not more so than) belief in a God and a Savior. After all... God can just make things happen with a thought... but the chance of everything just "lining up" - for EVERYTHING, not just human life - is even MORE improbable, in my opinion. Thus, I find it quite easy to believe.
     
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  3. tripwire45
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    Fair enough. fortch did title this thread "Why choose atheism?" If you acknowledge that the universe was created by intellegent design it does not presuppose that the intellegent creator is the G-d of the Bible. You could believe that there is an ultimate creator and also believe that the creator is a completely different entity than what Christians believe.

    However, for those of us who *are* believers of the G-d of the Bible, it is safe to assume that yes, the universe is created and yes, the creator is the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. For others, opinions will vary.
     
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  4. Quarky

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    Thanks Michael, i knew that you had a chemistry background and it's interesting that you take a different viewpoint to myself after learning about so called 'fundemental' physics. I say 'so called' because i would guess that there will be much more to come. :D

    This is one of the largest problems for my own understanding and it's where my question is arising from. It is very curious to me how we come to these different views from the same information.

    Lets take you and i as an example of what i'm trying to understand, lets say that we both have some knowledge of particle physics and the stunning complexities that come with it.

    Why do you and i take different things from the information ? I find this truly fascinating. As you say, this strengthens your resolve as to the existence of a creator, where as it only produces more and more doubt in my mind. This is something i am desperately trying to understand.

    It seems to me that there is some sort of scale at work. At one end there are people such as myself, people who are working with 'doubt'. Then there are people at the other end of the scale, such as your good self, who are working with 'belief'. In between there are many people who sway between these two standpoints at varying points in their lives. It would appear that everyone falls into this scale. It seems to me that i am missing something that you have in your mind, and vice versa - either way, we are different.

    At the moment, i would guess that this scale is a property of our own amazing minds and our 'spiritual' differences are simply a symptom of our own minds physical differences.

    When i make any kind of informed judgement, i try to get to the resulting answer by always remembering my perspective in relation to my own mind (or brain might be an easier term to work with) - I try to remember that everything that i am perceiving is occuring within the physical confines of my own head. After all, our own consciousness is all that we can know, it is as far as i know, impossible to read someone elses consciousness. Now, if you remove your head from the universe, what will happen? it is likely that the universe will continue to expand and everything will carry on without your head. (This makes me laugh out loud in awe, quite often)

    It's hard to explain what i feel, i guess that i would say that i think that our spiritual or religious differences are perhaps a symptom of our own minds, and not in fact acted upon by unknown forces from outside. This is the only way i, with a doubting mind can rationalise the existance of all of these differences.

    I'll have to use this space in my head to consider stopping posting on this thread - I should be revising for the 70-270 !! lol
     
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  5. BosonMichael
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    Who knows? If we knew what caused faith to exist, we'd either run towards it or away from it, depending on our desires. :)

    Personally, I look at the all the complex interactions and ask myself, "How can there NOT be a designer of such order?" It is difficult for me to accept that it just "happened" by chance... not just one miraculous piece, or two miraculous pieces, or a few isolated amazing occurrences... but THOUSANDS (and perhaps, MILLIONS) of complex interrelationship patterns/behaviors. If it's NOT designed, then it's inconceivable (to me) and amazing that everything works so wonderfully "just by chance".
     
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  6. fortch

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    Thanks for all the input, folks -- fascinating reading, and I'd input more if I had time, but I *just* started my new job today -- and it's a British-owned (BAE) company as well!

    Anyways, why do I see a science vs religion thing brewing here? Is there any possibility that God lets us play the game, and gives us the playbook to study from? Why can't science be logical AND our understanding of how God designed our universe? This is *not* mutually exclusive, IMHO. Also, let's not mix up evolution with natural selection and adaptation -- they are most definitely not interchangeable. What's more, ever see Darwin's conclusion on how life initially started, or ever read his thoughts as he grew older?

    I, too, believe the bible to be the word of God, penned by people of God's choosing. However, I also know that it's FULL of metaphor, and is often subject to huge swings of interpretation. I'm not a six-day literalist, and never have been -- but that's not important to my belief, because I'll never know the truth about such things until I die. Why waste time proving or disproving something that will be far beyond my lifetime to prove (if ever)? Natural Selection and Adaptation are proven to me -- I'll believe in that -- but they are not the table of evolution, just a leg or two. Again, science itself proves that order doesn't just happen, and I'm not ready to believe that our reality, as it stands, is just 'how the cards were dealt'.

    This was originally started as 'why choose atheism', and although it was thread-jacked into several different topics, I'm so amazed by the civility in this volatile thread. I was going to suggest we stay on topic, but since nobody is dropping troll-bombs, we'll keep it up. :biggrin
     
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  7. shambles

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  8. AJ

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    I would like to add my thanks to all the members who have posted in this thread for keeping it not only civil but informative as well. This kind of thread is potentially a hot bed causing plenty of headaches. It has been treated with the up most respect by all the posters and that is a testament to you all.

    Thanks to you all :thumbleft
     
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  9. dmarsh
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin

    Read the part on religion. I don't think Darwin did reconvert, but many people understandably fear death and change their views late in life, I think its pretty bad taste to use this to justify any argument.
     
  10. Quarky

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    Thanks for that link ! very, very interesting - its just what i was after and has given me something else to think about for a while. :D

    Actually, i am going to leave this thread here as i'm finding that i am spending too much time thinking about it, rather than concentrating on getting ready for the 270 exam ! :D

    Just one final thing though, something that i also find interesting about 'thought patterns' in realtion to 'doubt' and 'belief'. I would suggest that 'doubt' is a human necessity in order to advance in any field, without it we cannot change. For example, if we imagine that a persons unquestionable belief is a ship sailing in a certain direction, then it is quite assumable that at some point in time, this ship may sail off in the wrong direction. Without our own doubt or uncertainty then it is not possible to correct the course of this ship and it will continue on its incorrect path. I see it that only doubt can dynamically alter ones choices at given times and without it, it is possible that you may be simply sailing your ship in one direction.

    Unfortunatley, doubt and questioning is all that my mind knows. Perhaps i am just unable to understand spirituality, no matter how much i try.

    Finally i would say that it doesn't matter where your moral standpoints come from, what religion you follow or what you believe to be true, it is much more important that ultimately, we all belive the same thing.

    Interesting thread though folks, made a nice change from the usual stuff. Nice discussion so far, but then again - nobody has mentioned the 'D' word yet. lol.

    Carl :D
     
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  11. fortch

    fortch Kilobyte Poster

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    It's bad taste to put words in my mouth. Never did I say he re-converted, so that must be an argument with yourself? Nobody really knows where he finally landed -- but that doesn't matter. What I find odd is that people would believe him 110%, while he (himself) had issues with his own belief system. :blink
     
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  12. Indo77

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    I don't really understand what's out there but I do believe the testimony of millions of people. I have no intention of shoving things down people's throats and just try to live my life as best I can even in difficult times. However there are some things in this world that can't be explained, including supernaturual phenomena.

    Almost every Catholic will recall events surrounding the fatima apparition. In 1917 the Virgin Mary appeared to 3 children in Portugal, this event led up to a phenomena that was witnessed by thousands.

    Either this happened or thousands witnessed a mass hallucination. I just cannot believe that all the witness were not of mental sound mind. Another message the Virgin left was

    On January 25-26, 1938 from 9 PM to 2 AM there appeared over the Northern Hemisphere a very unusual light that scared many people. The New York Times devoted almost an entire page to the event. Scientists attributed it to an exceptional aurora borealis however the borealis is caused by sun flares and other scientists have dismissed the claims that this was the borealis. The light that radiated from it was blood red (not mult-colour) and reports from Europe suggested that people thought there was a mass fire in the sky. Hitler who seen the light is known to have commented that "This would be a bloody war" (World War 2). I know of people that have seen the borealis and this event and expressed there was nothing like it. People thought it was the end of the world.

    That's just my take on things and I am not forcing anyone to believe it.
     
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  13. wizard

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  14. dmarsh
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    Well firstly I don't think his scientific beliefs did change significantly but i'm not an expert on the matter. I'd never reccomend blind faith, thats part of religion not science. Unfortunately not all experiments or study can be undertaken individually by everyone, some knowledge has to be taken on trust from trusted sources, however these sources are corroberated, experiements are replicated, studies are duplicated, papers are reviewed, heretics/mavericks take different routes etc.

    The accepted knowledge of science is continually being extended at the edges like some giant superstructure, sometimes the core structure needs updating as the result of a new finding, when this is necessary it is done. It is however not always useful to spend a large portion of time trying to disprove accepted facts, thats why the core scientific knowledge is largely left unchallenged apart from by a few new students as part of their learning.

    Its possible his religious beliefs did change, but as has been disscussed this means different things to different people, many people think they can have both, including traditional christians from both sides of the atlantic. How they reconcile the differences is beyond me but many claim to mange it without issues. I think its highly dubious that Darwin would decide that his lifes work was a waste, in fact it underpins vast amounts of modern science, genetics research is heralded to bring many new advances.

    Inteligent questioning is an essential part of science, however FUD is not and just generates heat not light...
     
  15. ay5000

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    I think making science the source of all mankind's answers is akin to giving it a status of religion/ideoligy.

    The irony is that science is based upon levels and levels of theories upon theories. If this isn't a form of blind belief then it certainly can be labelled as belief in unconfirmed theories. What really is the difference then to saying "how can you believe in something you have never seen (i.e. God)". Scientific theories are based on experimentation and hypothesis/predictions -- believing in God is based on observing and concluding on the facts of life.

    Dawkins and other popular athiests base their arguements on unproven theories, except that they present them in a manner where it is hard to detect and remember that everything they are claiming and basing their belief upon is not a proven reality/fact! Oh the irony :)
     
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  16. shambles

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    That's the whole point! No scientist will tell you that a theory is absolutely, indisputably right. It's a theory - it's open to challenge and experiment. This process of challenging and experimenting on a theory leads to a new, improved theory which gets challenged and falls to be replaced by another, on and on... Sometimes the new theory is completely new, sometimes it is a modification of the previous one. But always, always there will be some observable, repeatable evidence to support the theory. A theory is not the truth, of course it isn't. By definition, it cannot be. But a theory might easily get very close to the truth, leaving only a tiny sliver of space for something else to get in. Darwin got close with his theory. But the theory has changed and evolved over the years to reflect new observations. It has been challenged and modified.

    Religious nuts, on the other hand have absolute certainty. They don't have a theoretical God. They believe the same old nonsense now as they believed a thousand years ago. They don't care that there are other more likely explanations for the things they see. Belief in God is based on putting all your rationality to one side and choosing to believe something other than what the evidence suggests. As a result, their crazy half-baked ideas cannot be rationally challenged because rationality doesn't work in a world where superstition is given the same value as science...

    Science won't give us all of mankind's answers. But it will certainly give us some good scientific answers to good scientific questions.

    And religion will continue to hold us back and make us less than what we can be...
     
  17. tripwire45
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    "Religious nuts", shambles? Let's keep the dialogue civil, shall we? I don't recall any of us "religious nuts" calling secular people "science nuts".

    Anyway, comparing a particular faith vs. study using the scientific method is comparing apples and oranges. One does not eliminate the other. There are scientific people (astronomers, physicians) who are also people of faith and in fact, their observations have led them to conclude that nothing in the universe could have been constructed so perfectly by random chance.

    Somewhere in the dim regions of this thread, someone said quite wisely that acknowledging "intelligent design" does not presuppose one religous belief system over another. Therefore, an argument in support of intelligent design will not support the G-d of the Bible, vs. any other religious point of view.

    Incidently, Darwin, in proposing his theories, said that the process wouldn't work without the Almighty's initiating and managing it. The idea that the evolutionary process was solely dictated by environment was not his idea and was established many years after Darwin to support denial of supernatural forces being involved in the creation and development of life.

    Sorry, shambles...but science and faith do not cancel each other out. It is possible to apply the scientific method to the study of a created universe however, both scientists who are secular and who are people of faith must be honest about containing their biases and let's be honest...it's not just people of faith who are biased and tempted to sway their conclusions (consciously or otherwise) in favor of what they *want* to see.
     
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  18. BosonMichael
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    Chemists, physicists... I'm proof of that. The study of science and belief in God are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the study of science has *increased* my belief in God, not decreased it.
     
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  19. shambles

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    Sorry - I just got caught up in my frustration...

    I don't even know why I do this argument. I know that nothing I say can change your mind because we occupy different planets. It's like trying to change the direction of a freight train with a poem...

    that is actually a good example of how a theory has been challenged and improved upon so that it better suits observation...
     
  20. shambles

    shambles Guest

    You can't truly understand a cat without being a cat. It's not good enough being part-cat - that just helps you understand what it is like being part-cat. And it's no good being a cat in a box. That just helps you to understand being a cat and a corpse at the same time. To understand being a cat, be one.

    You can't be a real scientist when you want to be, and a deist the rest of the time. You might think you get it, but you don't.

    Similarly, I can't be part-catholic. I either am, or I am lapsed, or I am not...
     

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