Why choose atheism?

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by fortch, Jun 8, 2007.

  1. Jakamoko
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    Jakamoko On the move again ...

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    Sentiments I think sum up what the thread was gently alluding to.... whatever the playground you scratch your chalk marks in :)
     
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  2. tripwire45
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    I'm going to wade in some slightly deeper waters here.

    Someone mentioned that they were ok with other people's beliefs as long as those beliefs weren't *forced* on him.

    It's interesting in that to a degree, other people's beliefs are sometimes imposed on our existance. For example, at least in the US, various businesses and such are most often found to be closed on Sunday because that's the Christian sabbath. Fine and dandy, but what if you're Jewish and your only weekend day to shop is on Sunday (observant Jews don't handle money on Saturday because it's *their* sabbath)?

    That issue is magnified even more in the part of the US I live in since their is a strong Mormon (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) influence here. That influence strengthens the issue of keeping businesses closed on Sundays.

    I recently read about a movement in Israel to have some types of entertainment and some public transportation available on Saturday. Currently, the nation of Israel has a six-day work week with work cutting off at midday on Friday and no work on Saturday (the Jewish sabbath starts at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday).

    While about 95% of the current Jewish population of Israel is secular (not being religiously Jewish), nevertheless, there is quite a struggle going on internally as to whether it's right and proper to have bus service on Saturday and to have discos in Tel Aviv open Friday night.

    The majority group in any society to some degree imposes restrictions on the entire population based on their beliefs. It doesn't mean that religious people go around to non-religious people screaming "Convert or die!" (at least in most cases), but you can hardly say that there's no impact in the general environment at all.

    In the US occasionally there is a clash based on "the separation of church and state" whereby a religious organization wants to put up some sort of public display of their faith and the government denies them permission. Most people worry about religion being "forced" on them (which is why laws in the US forbid forming a state religion) but often the situation is reversed where secular society inhibits religious expression, thus "forcing" secular values on the faith group.

    We could also wander into the argument of which faith group is "right" and why is one group (take your pick) right and all the others wrong. I suppose the safest stance socially is to not express a faith at all and avoid any critisism.

    Like fortch, I have a strong faith in G-d and His Son. I don't go around beating anyone's brains out with the Bible but I don't hide my faith either. Anyone who honestly wants to know why I believe what I believe (and isn't just baiting me to "prove" me wrong) can gladly ask me about it. If you'd just soon not be bothered, that's fine with me, too.

    I'm impressed so far with the civility of responses in such a potentially explosive thread. Well done, mates.

    As an interesting aside, I'm in the process of reading a book called "Devices of the Soul" written by Steve Talbott. It's published by O'Reilly and I'll write a review when I've finished the book. The writer isn't religious but he does present the struggle between the "specialness" of being human and what the machine takes away (or we allow it to take away). Given my stated position of faith, it will be an interesting review indeed.
     
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  3. BosonMichael
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    That's me as well. I'll share my beliefs with those who are willing to listen. If you don't WANT to accept, I can't make you accept, and even if I somehow could, it'd be meaningless and worthless to you.

    Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, and I believe He died for my sins. If I'm wrong, eh, I'm wrong. I've lost nothing, in my eyes. But I don't believe I'm wrong, and if I'm not, I've gained eternal life. That's not why I believe... after all, if I'm "believing" just to get eternal life, I'm not believing for the right reasons... but it sure is a nice "side benefit". :biggrin
     
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  4. Quarky

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    Michael and Trip, i would truly love to hear your side of things.

    To be honest i cant understand the way that a person can believe fully in anything - for me, its about making a judgement based on what very little knowledge we have at any given time, sort of a 'best guess.'

    I've found that this is very dynamic and can be influenced by many things in life and very much adapts to a persons experiences and surroundings, my beliefs have never really changed, i've always thought that i don't know anything and the more that i've found out, just strengthens that point.

    I find it very interesting and could talk about it all day, every day - but the fascinating thing is that i still would know nothing at all at the end of it !

    All, being said - i am open to everything and would like to learn more - i actually welcome someone to attempt to 'convert me' or to try and force their beliefs onto me - i dont think that this is actually possible for anyone, we just pick out what we want to and then make an informed judgement based on the new information. ( all based on experiences and surroundings)

    :D
     
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  5. stuPeas

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    Good points Trip. I must say, thats an angle id not actually considered. Its the same in the U.K although, these days to a lesser extent in most places (shops being shut on Sundays).

    Michael...When you say that you will share your beliefs with those that are willing to listen,...Does this mean that you will approach someone, unsolicited, with your beliefs, or (and this is what I think you are saying), that you will share you beliefs IF ASKED.

    Maybe this is not a good question to ask, because it could turn the mood of the thread.

    I personally do not like being approached in this manner. I think that it shows the approacher to be somewhat patronizing, in that they think the listener may not be capable of coming to a decision "without their help".

    I am glad however, that there are people such as yourself who are willing to take the time to answer peoples questions about your religion, I just believe that it should be left to the individual to decide when he/she wishes to receive such information.

    I hope that this post is not offensive, This thread does seem the have the potential of erupting at any time. Saying that, it HAS been pretty interesting so far. :biggrin
     
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  6. Amine

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    Amen to that ! :thumbleft
     
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  7. onoski

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    This is a very touchy subject especially when the views are being expressed on an IT technical forum. My take is that I do respect those that do believe there is a God and vice versa.

    On the other hand am a christian and born again in christ Jesus, once a lost sinner but now saved by God's love through Jesus christ.

    It is easy to understand all the valid points expressed so far. This is because we really cannot in the eyes of us natural man believe in something we cannot see. This would take into account the experiences some people have experienced in their personal life. A good example someone losing a precious child or loved one or even through accidents or evil deeds, illness etc.

    I would expect this person to be very skeptical about there being a God and he's goodness. However, we should also understand that God's word clearly states that he is no respecter of any man.

    This being said he is a good God, Job in the Bible suffered without even knowing God was behind it. But what happened at the end of Job's suffering. I am sure we know, as it was better than his earlier life experiences.

    However, God did state clearly in he's holy word that in the eyes of you and me a natural human that his ways would come as senseless. A good example is that of Jesus giving he's life for us to pay the price of our sins. I for one would not willingly give my life through a brutal death for someone that hates my guts. That's exactly what Jesus did for us all.

    Please, understand everyone is entitled to their own opinions as to whether to want to believe or disbelieve. In the beginning God created Adam and Eve with a free will hence they were able to be convinced by the serpent to eat of the fruit that God forbade them.

    God did not create us a robot hence people can believe and disbelieve as they see fit. I am only trying to get us all thinking and not bashing anyone.

    Lastly, am a sinner still but thank God through Jesus I can say there is hope for me and everyone else that would truly seek God. Bless you all:biggrin
     
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  8. tripwire45
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    I can't speak for Michael but I wouldn't just walk up to a stranger on a street corner and ask if they knew where their soul was going if they died in the next ten minutes.

    There are folks that do that and if it's truly what the Almighty leads them to do, then it must be a sound action. I suspect though that individuals or churches decide that this is how they will evangelize and, in my opinion, "cold calling" people with the message of the Gospel doesn't work very well. The reasons are obvious in the various responses on this forum. Most people aren't ready to hear that message.

    On the other hand, if anyone *is* truly interested (and that interest is put there by the Almighty, not me), then I'd be glad to have that discussion with them. It's not the individual believer's job to draw people to the Almighty...it's the Almighty's Himself. That's how anyone becomes a person of faith. In and of ourselves, we don't have it in us to desire a relationship with the Creator. That's not human nature.

    Quarky...you said you'd love to hear Michael's and my position as to why we are people of faith. That's a tough one to approach. Almost every time I've tried to express the answer in a text-based web format, it's not gone over well. You just can't have a "conversation" on a discussion board, if you take my meaning. Also, there are aspects of faith that can't be "proven" scientifically. How can you "prove" that you have a direct one-on-one relationship with the ultimate supernatural being?

    It took me years to submit my will to G-d and even years after becoming a believer, He has still had to work on me to have me see that I haven't been willing to bend all of my will to Him. The process is ongoing...like a journey down a path, guided by your Father. Sometimes you and your Father don't see eye to eye but ultimately, if you can see that "this" Father has only the best intentions for you and only has the desire to see you live the best life you can possibly live, you will finally give up your own bullheaded notions and say, 'You're right. Please forgive me".
     
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  9. shambles

    shambles Guest

    Ooh, Ooh! Can I have a go?

    The belief in the possibility of God is often defended on the grounds that because you can't prove he doesn't exist, you have to keep an open mind. He might.

    Fair enough, I say. Except...

    In this world of beauty and endless wonder, there's this tooth fairy handing out cash for tiny little teeth... Now, if I tell you I believe the tooth fairy is real - what does that do to my credibility? It's exactly the same argument. Prove me wrong, Guys and Girls.

    But here's where it gets interesting... If the tooth fairy and God are the same sort of thing, why is it somehow acceptable, credible even, to believe in and kill on the behalf of one, but not the other? And how did we get into this mess?
     
  10. greenbrucelee
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    Totally agree:D

    This all the same as Evolution and faith

    Somepeople say our ancestors are apes some say they are not and some god created us.

    I believe that when you die you become worm fodder and nothing else.

    I believe faiths were created because of peoples fear of death and if you dont fear death then you dont need to believe in a faith where it says you will go somewhere nice when you die.

    The reason I dont fear death is because I have nearly died four times in my life one time three people I knew died but I did not.

    I could say well why did God take my freinds and leave me here to grieve or I could be like I just dont care.

    I never believed before my friends died and I still dont now in any faith but have no problem with anyone being religious as long as they dont try to convert me into their faith
     
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  11. BosonMichael
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    I do share my views with others. I usually ask first if it's OK, and if they don't want to hear them, then I don't tell them. Thus, I allow people to ultimately make the decision whether they want to receive the information.

    If you don't like being approached, I'm sorry; I've been commanded by Jesus Christ to spread the Word to all the nations of the world and to encourage them to become believers in Christ (Matthew 28:19-20). If I don't do it simply because I'm scared I'll "do something you don't like", then I'm not doing what I've been told to do.

    If you feel you are being patronized, you are assuming their thought processes incorrectly - I can assure you, that's not their intention. And if you don't like what Christians are saying... man, just walk away, it's just that easy. :)

    You don't come to a decision with my help. You come to a decision on your own. However, if you don't hear what I believe to be the truth, then there's a chance that you will have NEVER heard the truth before. That's far less likely in a free country like the US or UK... but the chance is still there. There are billions of people who have never even heard of Jesus Christ. I hope to reach as many as possible, but all I can do is provide information. The choice to believe or not believe is entirely up to them. Not me. I'm just the messenger.
     
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  12. BosonMichael
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    I can't force my beliefs on you, or anyone. You believe what you want to believe. I can only give you information about what little I know and allow you to make your own decision.

    It's the same with IT certification and career advice. I can advise someone all day long, but at the end of the day, they're going to do what they believe is right based on the information they have.

    If you're honestly looking for information, I'd be extremely happy to provide assistance. But make no mistake - I won't "convert you". You will be responsible for that, IF it happens. :)
     
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  13. BosonMichael
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    Yeah, I haven't gotten to where I can do that. I share my views with friends and with co-workers and with people who have come to my church looking for information... but I have yet to go up to someone on a street corner or a stranger in a restaurant.

    Trip, I agree that "cold calling" doesn't work well... at least, not the time you make that call. But it's not that first visit where a decision will be made... the "cold call" will, hopefully, get them curious so they'll want to go look for the information, if they're interested. We just plant the seed... and God makes it grow.

    Exactly. I provide the information... and I let God do all the work.

    I'm still unwilling at times to bend my will to Him. But I'm a flawed human being, a sinner. That said, I work on that daily.

    You are *so* correct that the process is ongoing. Even though I've been a saved Christian for a long time, I'm just *now* feeling like I'm starting to "get it", and not just "play" being a Christian. I've gone far too long doing what I want to do and not what God wants me to do. And, like you say, ultimately, He's got my best intentions in mind.
     
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  14. BosonMichael
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    I don't believe because I think He might exist. I believe because I think He does exist. And I don't have to defend it. That's what faith is, man! The belief in things unseen and unprovable. God gives me that faith.

    Again, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I've really lost nothing if I am.

    I don't need to prove you wrong about the tooth fairy. If you want to believe in that, that's fine with me.

    If God were to somehow tell me to kill for Him, I'd do so. That said, I don't believe he has made that requirement of me; not in the Bible, and not in my prayers to Him. In fact, he says quite the opposite:

    So, personally, I don't see where it's acceptable or credible to kill in His name (or the tooth fairy's name, for that matter).

    I'm not sure where you're getting this thought where you think a bunch of Christians want to go out and kill people in Jesus' name...
     
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  15. Fergal1982

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    I was once in a discussion with someone on a night out, who had heard about my beliefs through my other half at her work (nothing detailed, he just heard it in the passing). He asked about my beliefs, and I was more than happy to discuss this.

    However, I got (justifiably in my opinion) a tad pissed off when, after hearing my belief, he stated something along the lines of "How are you going to feel when you die and find you are wrong?" WHEN???? 'If' I wouldnt have minded but when implies that my beliefs are wrong - fact! NO-ONE, and I do mean NO-ONE can prove their belief system to be true over all others. Dont presume that your belief is right and mine is wrong simply because you dont believe it. I accept that you do not believe what I do, and you believe differently to me. I also accept that you BELIEVE im wrong and that you BELIEVE i will ship up on the clearing at the end of the path to find ive been wrong all along. I dont have an issue with you BELIEVING it to be so, but please dont be so arrogant as to outright tell me im wrong, unless you can provide me with evidence that shows it.

    Im a pragmatic man, if you show my belief to be wrong throug proof I will accept it. If, in our discussions, you explain something to me that feels right to me, I will also adapt my beliefs to accomodate what you said. But until you can prove to me what you believe and I dont, our discussion is only a matter of 'I believe this...', 'Well i dont believe that, what i believe is....'.

    I once got stopped in the street by two 'witnesses (or was it mormons, I cant remember), and happily had a twenty minute discussion on my beliefs in comparison to theirs. I was even happy to let them pray over me at the end of the meeting (To me, whatever force is in the world responds to prayer, so it doesnt matter what religion they are). I believe that, if nothing else, knowledge of anothers belief system promotes tolerance and acceptance. Not doing so only promotes closed mindedness. If, in these discussions, a person discovers that the belief system they are being shown feels right to them, and wish to convert, then fair play to them. We can only work with what we as individuals FEEL is right for ourselves.

    As I said before, I'm pagan. Im the only person in my family is pagan (even my other half is not). I was raised Catholic, but chose to turn to this faith when I discovered it and felt that it was right for me. Even amongst pagans, our beliefs vary radically from person to person.

    Ultimately, (most likely because of my religious origins), where I end up is very similar to Christianity. Not exactly, but closer than some. How I get there is different from Christianity.

    I would ask those of you who have expressed that its your duty to spread the word, to please remember that you are discussion your own personal views with another. It doesnt make you right, it makes you different. You may be right and all us 'sinners and non-believers' may well discover in the clearing that we have been wrong all our lives. Equally, it may be you who finds this. None of us know for sure, hence why there is discussion and variation at all. Respect that they have a right to their beliefs and that they are no more wrong than yours. Equally, you have a right to believe anything you wish, and they are no more wrong than mine.
     
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  16. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    Erm.... the crusades perhaps?

    It must be said, however, that in Christianity's defense, this was a previous action. Present mentality amongst the religion seems to be that a war of words is more effective in converting people to the faith than a war of blades (perhaps because if you fail to convince someone, you can always have another go later).
     
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  17. BosonMichael
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    Something in the last 800 years, then? I'm quite sure that none of the Crusaders are alive any longer... :D

    That said, I'm not here to defend their actions any more than I'm here to defend ANYONE who purports to be a Christian, then does evil. I'm here to share what I know about God's Word, for those who are willing to listen. And as far as I understand the Bible, murder is a sin.
     
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  18. BosonMichael
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    Right. I might believe you're wrong, but you might also believe I'm wrong. That guy probably should have used different wording, such as, "What would happen if you were to die and come to find out that you were wrong?" But you could certainly have posed that question right back to him, right?

    Yeah, it sucks that there are arrogant Christians and arrogant atheists and arrogant insert members of any religion or belief system here. But some people will just be that way.

    I don't pretend to have all the answers. For anything. I can simply tell you what I believe to be true... and that's it. Sure, I believe I'm right... but I also understand that it's a belief, not a fact that can be proven. We will all only know for sure AFTER it's too late to do anything about it. :)
     
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  19. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    Ah, such a hot topic that the replies come in faster than you can respond to them. :biggrin

    Absolutley Michael! I've met my fair share of Pagans who I cant stand to be around. Most of them have a massive chip on their shoulder about anything christian. Usually stemming from the crusades where scores of pagans were killed. Notice however, that none of these people were involved, nor had loved ones who were involved. Theres no emotional link between them and these events so its almost ludicrous that they have this response (especially considering that for most, Paganism is something they come to from a more mainstream religion followed by their family).

    I've sat for hours with a group of Christians at Uni, out to spread the word amongst the freshers. We had a great time discussing it, and the only true critisism i levelled at them was for their wording on a 'test' they had. It basically asked a series of questions and told you what kind of world view you ascribed to. On the back of the results was an explanation of these views. However it was obvious that it was copied from a Christian text and so stated why each was wrong (Except their own of course). I merely pointed out that if you were toting this test as a means to identify your world view, they should really have more religion-neutral explanations, since it could offend many people.

    I think the overriding message from this thread, expressed by every side of the fence, is one of tolerance and respect. Give every person the right to chose their belief system, and respect their right to follow it. Its fairly clear that we all seem to want this, whilst at the same time, want the opportunity to express our view to others, and to open dialogue to further a greater understanding of those we share our lives with. Bob next door might be a fundamentalist Muslim, but that doesnt make him a bad person. Sara across the street is Pagan, but shes not evil, and shes still great with the kids.

    From ignorance breeds fear. We are genetically designed to run from that we fear, or fight it. When someone challenges your belief by expressing something different, many people are not secure enough in their own belief to take the challenge (direct or otherwise), and so react by trying to force theirs on others, or by punishing them in some way. This is usually a minority, but it gives everyone a bad name.

    From knowledge comes understanding. From understanding, tolerance. By knowing what the other side feels and believes, we can appreciate why they do things that seem strange to us. When we acknowledge that we are different, we can move on with living our lives together.
     
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  20. greenbrucelee
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    I agree with the second part of your quote but what you fail to grasp is that most wars since the crusades have been directly or slightly indirectly to religion especially Christianity. Now I am fully aware that a minority of people if given the slightest bit of power especially when it comes to power over others however slight would exploit that power to their own ends.

    And if that person thinks they are doing good by invading another country without a majority consent but because he/she says some spiritual being told them it was ok the he or she needs to reavalute their way of life and/or thinking
     
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