Warning! Controversial Thread: " Artist defiantly draws Prophet Mohammed"

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See, this is the big difference between you and I. You believe my belief system is a bunch of crap... I don't believe your belief system is a bunch of crap. Who is really tolerant of whom?

 

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i have to agree with this!! its natural for someone who knows more about a subject to try to educate someone who doesnt (thats what this forum is all about) but it does seem like its turning bullyish.

I went through a tough time of it about 10 years ago and through complete luck i met a guy who was a minister (he was an american living in scotland), now he was the best guy you could ever meet, he was kind and helpfull and he went out his way to help myself and my brother, he tried to get us to go along to his church now and again and would always have us pray when he left (like i said i was not religious but after all he did for us i thought it respectfull to take part in it). he visited us regularly and even took the role of minister at my dads funeral. If religion gives us people like him then i am all for it.

Each to their own.

 

Mate first of all I lived in Northern Ireland for 8 months back in 1995, please don't tell me that religion does not have anything to do with it because it does.

My friend who I was living with brother had his legs broken by four men whilst coming out of his protenstant church, and according to the statement he told the police, they were calling him a dirty protestant c***.

The tabloid thing ( I actually work in the industry) they only do the big stories like people getting bombed etc because the other stuff is not considered worthy and would take up too much space.

The punishment beatings take place every day.

So please don't talk to me as if I don't know what I am talking about because I do.

 

Maybe I phrased that wrong, and I am sorry for that.

But if you had it your way I would believe your faith and everything about it.

I won't try to make you see it my way I am just stating how I see it, but you will try to make me see it your way.

And this is end of my involvement in this thread because its getting out of hand now.

 

I feel like I'm posting in to thin air. All of the responses in this thread recently have been regarding more "inflamatory" statements but the comments of other posters I've responded to, hopefully with an eye on remaining calm and reasoned, seem not to attract attention. Either everyone agrees with me (which I doubt), everyone thinks my posts are boring (which I hope not), or only emotionally charged statements get responded to, with the result of "I'm outta here because this is getting out of hand". I've been trying to *not* be out of hand and attempting to have my thread follow that same route, but that doesn't seem worthy of anyone's notice nor does it seem to be stimulating debate. If you choose not to participate in this thread anymore (which is your right and no worries here), fine and dandy, but for that part of it, I don't think that my original intent in creating the thread nor my actions here are deserving of that response. Cheers, mates.

 

It was always a risky thread to start up, even you recognised that. I suspect the nature of the forum membership has affected the type of debate that has resulted: there are few who are muslims, after all.

Going back to your original question:

You are clearly a scholarly, deep thinker: your responses to my posts have demonstrated that to me, even where we disagree. I think you understand that there are passages in the Bible that are difficult to understand, and we have explored some of that. There are similar passages in the Koran. People who are less scholarly than you may take a more literal reading of them, and consider them applicable in the modern day. The reason this does not happen at present in western christian communities I think is as much a cultural and social issue rather than simply a religious one. In old europe, populations who had suffered from religious persecution by fanatical christian zealots rebelled against it over several centuries so that it was no longer possible for it to be applied in this literal persecutory way. The same struggles for freedom, and for a different, less literal interpretation of the words in the Koran do not seem to have taken place in the east. I think that to understand much of modern fanatical islam, a study of pre-reformation christian society is revealing.

I don't know how things are in the US - I suspect ethnic muslim populations are smaller and more dispersed than in some of the cities of europe, but over here, there is a strong movement in some of these communities to try to get the national governments to allow these communities to have their own jurisprudence, based on Sharia law.

Whereas you see the courts of the Sanhedrin as something distant in time and culture, either from the past, or on a future based on your messiah's return, for many muslim populations, their religious courts are valid now. Stonings, beheadings etc are the hidden side of that, as they portray only their wish to, for example, use these courts for minor or domestic issues. But it is the thin edge of the wedge, and certainly the more extreme are open in their desire for full Sharia law (as per the Taliban) to be applied throughout the world. The reason that some religious authorities are often so slow to condemn much of the violent rhetoric of the hotheads, is that in a sense they agree with it - it fits with their literal reading of passages in their holy book.

Looking at the above quote now, I wonder if I understood your original question's direction: - whether you were wondering why muslims 'do' issue death threats, or if you were wondering why christians 'do not'. I think a large part of the answer is that the societies in which christians live would not allow them to.

 

BTW.

I mean no disrespect by this comment, and it's not really about religion.
We could be debating a new graphics card, and it would be the same.

I think the thing is, that especially in the case of Trip and BM - you guys are technical writers.
You are used to dealing with 'fact' and well put together arguments.

I've written a few papers, and it's REALLY hard.

The fact that some poeple here may not have such well expressed arguments doesn't make them 'wrong'.
It just means they can't express their opinions as well.


An argument about the truth or untruth behind any religion is one that no-one can win, and has been raging for thousands of years.

There is little in the way of proof to back up either side, so all we're really left with are our opinions.

 

Thanks Freddy.

I appreciate your understanding.
Challenging someone's beliefs (or lack of them) is never going to go smoothly.

It's not brainwashing, but often it goes deeper than one can (or would wish to) put into words.

I've been following this thread with interest, and there have been some very good points made by all.

 

I simply give you my point of view. You choose to believe because YOU want to believe. I have absolutely nothing to do with your salvation or lack thereof.

Sure, I'd love for you to become a believer. But nobody can force you to become a believer. I can't convince you or anyone else. You have to convince yourself, or it simply cannot happen.

Again, I'm not trying to tell you to believe. However, I AM telling you that many of your preconceived notions about Christianity are simply inaccurate. You assume things that just aren't true, such as believing that someone is "in charge" of my religion.

As far as "bullying" is concerned... when someone makes allegations about our faith that just aren't true, should we just let those statements stand without addressing them, guys?

 

I understand that... but if they state their opinion about something about my religion that is incorrect ("Christians believe that unbelievers should be stoned", "Christians are brainwashed and/or can't think for themselves", "Christians believe just because their parents believe"), then should I not be allowed to respond to it, using the most literate and logical arguments I can?

In short, I don't believe that it is provable that they are wrong/right for not believing (just as it is not provable that I am wrong/right for believing). But I DO think it is provable that they are wrong for their inaccurate beliefs about what Christianity is and is not about. And that's what I've been focusing on.

I'm not here to say that "my religion is better than your religion". However, when someone makes allegations that are untrue, I have no choice but to point out the truth, using all the gifts of writing that have been given to me (coincidentally, gifts that I believe have been given to me by God).

Note that those of here who are Christians haven't said that we are right and you are wrong. We simply say that we believe we are right, here's why we believe we are right, and you can believe what you will. We're not trying to convert anyone. If anyone converts to Christianity, it won't be because of me... it'll be because of God.

 

for a complete non-understanding person could you explain something for me (and this relates to all religions)

is their any proof that jesus or mohammed ever existed! obviously with exception to the bible and koran.

 

This is QFT!

 

Then saying what I believe is just crap, is pretty much out of order isn't it? You can't prove I believe in somebody who doesn't exist, and I can't prove you that He does. It's a wash.

Um.... You mistake a defense of a point of view, and the refuting of misconception, with a personal attack. A personal attack would go more along the lines of, You're a bully because you have shown my misconceptions to be wrong. That's an attack on my person, not a refutation of my ideas or what I believe in.

LOL. That's actually pretty funny.

The only problem with your statements, and if you want to hold to them you have every right to do so, is that there were eyewitnesses to the facts. Lazarus had been dead for three days. Everyone knew it, including the enemies of Jesus. He had already been wrapped in burial clothes, and had all the medical procedures the Jews performed on dead bodies had already been done to his body. He'd also been in his tomb for three days. If you want to deny all those things, you're welcome to it, but it doesn't change the facts.

How about there were over 300 prophecies written, in the OT over a period of more than 1500 years, that fit only one man, Jesus. No one denies the age of those prophecies either. But, you're welcome to deny it if you want to.

Ummm.... Just what do you think telling me my belief system is a bunch of crap is? Is not that you trying to shoot my beliefs down? Funny how that seems to be only a one-way street with you. You can say what you want, but if anyone objects to that they are out of line.

Hmmm... Respect for someone includes thinking they are nuts? That's not any form of respect I've ever heard of.

Really? Just when have I said, or even hinted at saying, that you are going to hell? The only person who has brought up the subject is you. And, just how is me telling you that you hold to mistaken beliefs about what I believe an attempt to convert you? It might interest you to know that I do not believe I could convert anyone. It might also interest you to know that I don't even believe it's my job as a Christian to try to convert anyone. I do believe it's my right as an individual to correct misunderstandings brought about by what appears to be sheer prejudice though.

The only problem I see with your point of view is this. If you're right and I'm wrong who loses out? No one. We have both lived our lives by what we believed. However, if I'm right and you're wrong, it's not the same outcome. I live forever and you don't exist anymore. I live with wealth and health untold. I will live in a place where no one will steal, kill, harm anyone else, and never die. It will be paradise. The one thing about it will be though, we'll both be rewarded according to what we believed to be true.

That's not me putting you down, telling you you're a terrible person. That's just the facts. We both have choices to make, we both have the right to make the choice we want to, and we'll both get what we choose. Just like any other choice we make in life, there are consequences to our choices.

Is that unreasonable?

 

Really? The fact that I have an understanding that you do not have, makes you think that I have the same capability for violence that a member of Al Queda does? That's an interesting leap in logic. A rather far fetched one too.

Why don't you point them out to me then? And, I find very similar behavior from you that you accuse me of indulging in. Your next paragraph is a good example of it.

Really. Hmmm.... You deny that that the mutations that the theory of evolution depends on happen randomly? Are you really saying all those mutations, even the ones that aren't passed on, happen with a design in mind? You're the very first evolutionist I know of that says that, and I've debated a few, read many, many more debates between evolutionists and creationists, and taken a few college classes with evolution as the subject matter.

Tell me, just what are the odds of a mutation taking place that will make a positive change in its life form? Is it 1 in 10, 1 in 100, 1 in 1000, 1 in 1,000,000, 1 in 1,000,000,000? Just what are the odds of any one mutation happening that will be found to contribute to the furtherance any one of the systems in any life form? What are the possible permutations in just one human gene?

 

You can check out this, if you're inclined to do so. It's a DVD that's based on the book of the same name.

 

Just going back to topic a bit.

I asked a while back if maybe acts of violence are a product of the society, even if they claim to have religious motives.

For example.
In the US, you guys are allowed to own guns.
Therefore, guns are part of your culture.

So, If I shoot someone and claim it was in the name of God - is that a gun crime, or a religious act?
What if I shoot someone and claim they insulted my wife?

At the end of the day, the act, the crime is the same.
But all of a sudden, it gets viewed very differently.

 

You might see it differently, but I do not... both cases involve someone committing murder. Doesn't matter whether they say it was in the name of God or not.

 

I don't see it differently.
I'm just trying to get back to topic.

Why is Islam perceived as violent, or why is it associated with death threats etc when other's aren't.

If a suicide bomber blows up a bus - why does he claim to be doing it in the name of Allah?
You're right - at the base level, it's still plain murder.

 

On the subject of Prophets/Messiahs/etc.

I once got stopped in the street by a couple of Mormons (or were they Jehovah's Witnesses? I cant remember! They had the black name badges with white text as I recall)

We had a very interesting conversation after they agreed that we were discussing our respective religions, not trying to convert me. Both nice guys.

Anyway... They made the point that they believe a Prophet is choosen every so many years, and that the last time one was chosen was back with Jesus.

Their main thrust was that, in this day and age, if someone surfaced claiming that they spoke to God, and could hear him replying, they would be locked up in the funny farm and pumped full of drugs faster than you could say "All Hail the Messiah!"

Its a fair point, you have to admit. Our first instinct, as a society, when faced with someone who hears voices, it to diagnose them as schizophrenic, and give them drugs to treat it.

Even if they persisted in stating that it was the voice of God, they would just be pumped full of more and more drugs, until such time as they were comatose.

Hell, even if the the Messiah himself were to descend upon the earth and show his power, people would be likely to believe he was nothing more than an incredibly talented magician, and part time loony.