Warning! Controversial Thread: " Artist defiantly draws Prophet Mohammed"

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bm, higher power given me the morals that are inherent in human nature. educated people do not need to be told that stealing is wrong, that murder, rape, child molestation (doh catholics), or any other stupid act that is perpetuated by stupid people is wrong. the argument that higher power keeps people in check is flawed because if it was true we would have the issues we have.

gbl has no flaw in his thinking the only thing you are hoping to incite in him is pascals wager.

 

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Really? You make arrogant statements that anyone who believes in their religion and says their religion is not out to do wrong to their fellow man, or is not power hungry, is brainwashed, and then say I'm taking you out of context? Let's get at least a little bit of balance to your pronouncements of your assumed facts.

 

i do think that if there was no religion things would be one step further in human evolution and acceptance, but again i never said that anyone who believes in religion is evil. just because i do not agree doesn't give me the right to say that you can't believe, i might think it is a bit ridiculous, but thats my right to feel that way. so i'll state it again if you want to believe in christianity go right ahead it makes no difference to me. just don't get your panties in a bunch if someone has a difference in opinion.

 

Some educated people don't care that stealing, murder, rape, and/or child molestation are wrong. As Freddy mentioned, people who put their desires above others will do those sorts of things, educated or not.

 

yes if you do not realize that religions all think they are the only true answer and want everyone to convert, thus giving that religion more power, then yes you are brainwashed. if religious people could live and let live then that wouldn't be true, but religious people always try to get people to convert to what ever they believe. i deal with it all the time when people find out i don't have a belief system other than myself. i try to stay out of religious debates for the simple fact that my point of view gets me less credit than anyone else in the U.S.

 

I don't care that you have a difference of opinion... but I was not the one who said that the world would be better off without religion. My question is this: how would it be better? Merely because people are less "ignorant"? Please.

 

You don't have less credit because you don't believe in religion... you have less credit because your logic is horribly flawed.

 

you are right bm, and that proves my point the majority of those people who do those stupid things are religious. so it counter balances the argument that higher power give us morals to live by. it is human nature and you do not need belief in a higher power to be a good upstanding citizen. some countries fully understand that and accept that. i think it is switzerland who is up to the 70% of it's population is athiest. we're talking about a country who has record lows of violence. so is that a higher power if the majority of the country doesn't believe in one?

 

Really? You can positively say what is not written in books you have never read? Wow. You're pretty amazing too.

As to stupid people, was Ted Bundy stupid? Was Ted Kuzinsky stupid? Was Stalin stupid? These were all highly intelligent people, with a lot of education.

Do you believe in free will, or do you believe in determinism? If you believe in free will then people have the choice to listen to a higher power or ignore it. If you believe in determinism, then people do what they do without a choice, and a higher power has nothing to do with it. Either way your logic is seriously flawed.

 

No; the people who do those stupid things profess to be religious... but the reality is, they are about as far away from true religion as they can possibly be...

...well, unless their religion TEACHES them to do those stupid things... in which case, you are correct. But that's not the case with Christianity, Judaism, or several other religions in existence.

No, you do not need belief in a higher power to be a good upstanding citizen. Nor have I ever said such. But lack of belief in a higher power does not automatically make you MORE upstanding than someone who is religious. Therefore, removal of religions will not automatically make us all "better".

 

Err, is it me, or have we lost it here somewhere?

 

While studying comparative religions will tell you something about those faiths what these studies won't do is give you the perspective of a person who has faith.

As far as I can tell from what you just said, the reason some Muslims are willing to threaten someone who insults the Prophet Mohammad has less to do with their faith and more to do with human nature. I can agree with that. For believers and unbelievers alike, we struggle with our humanity on a daily basis. Some of course, just give in to their humanity which is why we have wars, murders, rapes and so on. Those of us who have a faith in a power higher than we are and who sets moral standards based on higher principles than our human desires, strive to achieve the goals presented to us by the One we call our Creator. We don't succeed 100%...no human can. But as the Apostile Paul said, it's running the race and not giving up that's important. When we fall, we get up again and keep on going.

Does that fact that believers do not obey their Creator's will 100% make them hypocrites? No. A hypocrite (in this context) is someone who says they ascribe to a moral standard but then deliberately serves their own needs instead. The hypocrite in this case critisizes others for not being 100% obediant while not even striving to better their behavior themselves.

A believer who is a human being and who fails to be "perfect" is not a hypocrite and not even really a failure, as long as they don't give up and cave into the world's standards.

No, I don't think you were unintelligent or unread and I did admit to taking a "cheap shot". The tone of your previous post (I know the exchange of posts has "exploded" since then) sounded a tad "superior" and often the general community sees people of faith as ignorant, superstitious, "unintelligent and unread".

I don't think you're unintelligent...I just disagree with you.

Now that I've lost control of this thread, is there anyone out there who wants to make any statements on the original topic before I ask that it be closed?

 

bm i never said that not believing made you a better person / citizen or anything else for that matter. this thread was started by trip not to be a pissing match as it has turned into, but a theoretical thought process form our members. what i originally provided was my thought that the world would be better with out religion and that i do think modern muslims are more nutty than modern christians. so i'm going to consider myself done with this thread as arguing religion is pointless. you say my logic is flawed because of what you believe i say your logic is flawed because of history and factual evidence. i know you'll return with some argument about my logic not being scientific, but thats cool i'm over e-thugging about religion.

free, you are self perpetual asinine christian that causes those who don't share your views to think slightly more less of the general term "christian". all you have done is try to speak on things you know nothing of, in fact you claim that i've never read any of these religious book, when in fact i have read the majority of the bible, koran, and jewish old testament. so remember the old "christian" adage of "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"

 

hey trip i don't appreciate your input into the thread, it has been, in my opinion, the most sensible argument that has taken place. so no need to apologize for a "cheap shot". nothing is going to hurt my feelings and i knew what you meant so no harm no foul

back when i was in school i was always the devil's advocate... go figure

 

Actually, you said,

How so, if having no religion doesn't make us better people? You are contradicting yourself.

Perhaps the world would be a better place... at least for you, because then you wouldn't have to deal with a bunch of people who believe in what you don't believe in: a higher power.

I don't say your logic is flawed because of what I believe. I say your logic is flawed because you make no logical sense. Has nothing to do with my beliefs. If someone came up and told me that you must be a Christian to be a good person, I'd say that their logic is flawed.

 

Doesn't matter if you appreciate his input or not; he's a moderator.

 

Sorry, but your view is being torn apart here because it contains serious logical fallacies.

Do you realize it is one thing to study about a religion, and another thing altogether to study the religion? I took a class in high school that was about world religions. Did I really know the religion and what effects its teaching has upon its adherents after studying about it? Absolutely not. I didn't know who the average Hindu is after studying about his religion.

It's like things in IT. I can study about IT, but I really won't understand it until I experience what it is like to work in IT, to do the job. I won't have a clue as to real effects upon a person, or what a person really knows by just studying about the subject.

I have studied some about Islam, but it wasn't until I really got to know someone who took his Islamic faith seriously that I began to understand Islam, and what it was all about. I still can't say I truly understand it, as I haven't studied it in depth. I have an idea about it, but I can't make absolute statements about its teachings.

You're making the illogical assumption that just because you have studied a little about something, that you completely understand it, and its effects upon people. And, you compound that error by making the further erroneous assumption that if a religious person has personal problems, is cruel, wants power or money inordinately, etc... that those problems arise from their religion. If you didn't make that assumption you wouldn't be making the statements that you have in this thread.

Here's a news flash for you. Just because a person has found a religion doesn't mean they are no longer human beings and stopped being liable to all the failings of human nature. People are just people. It doesn't matter if they profess a belief in anything, or deny believing in everything. They are just people. Period. And as people they are going to have a human nature.

Look at yourself. You're highly intolerant of anyone that is religious. You put down their beliefs, you scoff at them, say they are brainwashed, etc... without even knowing anything about them. All you have to know is that they believe in a religion, and your attitude towards them seems to change immediately. Do you blame that on religion too? If so, why? You claim to be free of such influences, and say religion is the cause of people being boorish. What's your excuse?

 

This is the last post I am gonna do on this as its getting a bit out of hand now.

I haven't got anything against people who believe in whatever faith they like, as long as those people don't try to press their beliefs on me.

The main problem I have with religions is that they all have a problem with sex, you cant have sex before marriage god will be angry, you can't be gay it's against gods law.

Its been proven that majority of gay men & women are born that way, something to do with the same chromosone when they should be different.

And there is no wrong with sex before marriage unless your religious.

Another problem I have is with Christianity is the Devil, I used to go trick or treating when I was a kid and there was a very Christian couple who lived around the corner. When you knocked on the door the woman would say Halloween is Evil, I don't believe in satan only god. So your calling Jesus a liar eh, you have to believe in Satan if you believe in Jesus because it says Jesus was tempted by the Devil.

I just don't like any religions as I believe they restrict freedom and are controlled by corrupt people who do no practice what their religions preach, but you are all entitled to your opinions and I will leave it at that.

 

Actually, for the purposes of this thread, I'm "just plain folks". I've made it clear to the mod and admin staff that they can moderate this thread as they see fit. It would be a conflict of interest for me to take the moderator role here.

 

GBL,

You're certainly entitled to your beliefs, but so is everyone else. When you start saying that any and all religions are corrupt, all religious leaders are corrupt, and people who believe the religion they belong to is not corrupt have been brainwashed, then you cross a line from expressing your own belief about things, into insulting those who disagree with you, and saying that they cannot be logical, normal people who just see things differently than you do because they actually know something about what they believe and the organization they have joined because they agree with what it teaches.

Who would have a better understanding of a religion? Someone who has studied it in depth, and because they have lived both inside and outside of it has seen both the pros and the cons of it, or someone who has never really studied it, but rejected it all as fables from the very beginning, and has no contact with it other than incidentally? The person with only the superficial knowledge, or the person with the in-depth knowledge?

Would you say I was being logical, or even slightly polite, if I said you had been brainwashed because you don't believe in any religion? I rather doubt it. I'd just about bet you'd be rather insulted at my insinuations.