Warning! Controversial Thread: " Artist defiantly draws Prophet Mohammed"

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Its a valid point. If you make the assertion that Poorer countries house more devout members of a certain religion (and I think I would agree with you on that one), then you cannot make a reliable comparison between the way people of two countries with different Wealth levels act. In this context a more suitable comparison would be between the christian and muslim populace within a given country (ie, in this case, in Sweden).

Unfortunately, we have nothing to draw a direct situational comparison between the two religions in Sweden itself, so lets take the example I gave with the Chocolate Jesus. To do so, we need to make the assumption that Sweden and the USA have comparable wealth levels (I suspect this is incorrect, but they are a lot closer than Sweden and Iraq/Afganistan/etc).

In both cases you see a minority of the religion issuing threats of death (The muslim woman in Sweden, protestors in the USA).
In both cases the majority of each religion, whilst not necessarily happy, dont react so violently.
In both cases, I see no public condemnation of the death threats by the religious bodies as a whole.
In both cases, I see no actual carrying out of the acts, merely threats (so far).

So, when you get right down to it, both religions are the same really. Both are guilty of the same crimes. Its only when you take out the factor of wealth, and take the examination beyond country borders to include those in a poorer state, that an imbalance appears to exist.

There is also the issue of connectivity with Islam. There is a great sense of connection between the religion of Islam as a whole that, I dont think exists so much in Christianity. Whatever causes it (possibly the same economic wealth situation), the worshippers of Islam seem far more concerned for the welfare, etc, of their brethren around the world. This connectivity often seems to fuel aggressive acts as protest against how their brethren are being treated in another part of the world. Again, these seem to be more perpetrated by the minority within the religion, rather than the religion as a whole (Although that doesnt mean that the practitioners as a whole of Islam arent concerned about the same matters - just that they may choose to deal with it in a different manner (peaceful protests/petitions/etc).

 

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The religions aren't guilty of the crimes; the people are.

You obviously have never been part of a Christian church that is vitally interested in helping others worldwide... both Christian and non-Christian. There are plenty of Christians who are incredibly concerned with the persecution of Christians worldwide... as well as in our own countries.

 

Correct me if im wrong, Religions are made by the people! No people, no religion! However, I didnt mean crimes in the literal sense, I meant more in the figurative sense I suppose. And since we're looking at religion as a whole, in those two examples, both 'religions' did more or less exactly the same thing.

I didnt say there wasnt a connectivity to some extent in Christianity. I said it didnt exist as much. The connection between groups of Muslims seems more pronounced, and more frequent than I've seen in Christianity.

 

That's a very thoughtful analysis Fergal and it has merit...up to a point. It's difficult to make a direct comparision because part of the information needed would be the number of death threats made by members of each faith within a given timespan...oh let's say 20 years. I don't know a way to come up with those statistics...at least not very quickly. "Conventional wisdom" would suggest that Christians and Jews publicly make death threats against their critics far less than Muslims but that's pretty much a subjective view and not hard evidence.

I did try something that yielded interesting results. I Googled the search strings:

muslim suicide bombers
christian suicide bombers
jewish suicide bombers

There were definite responses for both muslim and christian suicide bombers but it appears that jewish suicide bombers don't exist...at least in great numbers. As the christian suicide bombers search results were examined, it seems that they don't really exist much either (though I did find an interesting piece about a Palestinian archbishop encouraging Christians to become suicide bombers).

I know this isn't the same issue as death threats against a cartoonist, but it does seem to point to a fundamental difference on how the three faiths approach this method of enacting religious/social/political change. I'm not even sure that suicide bombings are so much a matter of religous thought as cultural or national thought since you don't see Muslims blowing themselves up in ice cream parlors in the US or UK (actually, that's not true according to this well-known story).

Again, this can't be directly related to the death threats against the Swedish cartoonist or Salman Rushdie since as Fergal pointed out, both of them are alive and well. There have only been threats. This also goes for the "Chocolate Jesus" artist who I also believe is unharmed.

I feel at a loss as to where to go from here. While this has been an interesting discussion, it really hasn't shed any light on the matter. I could draw an insulting picture of Jesus or Moses and plaster it all over the news media and the worst that would happen to me is that I'd get a lot of angry emails. I don't think I'd have to worry about a Christian or a Jew walking up to me and blowing me away (although I'd probably get yelled at).

No one with an "inside perspective" has chosen to respond so I guess this issue will either have to remain a mystery or we will each have to come up with our own conclusions about what these events mean to us (which may or may not reflect reality).

 

It would be really interesting to hear from somebody who is a Muslim.

But I would say that given the nature of this thread, we're unlikely to.
Although I think we've all been suitably open minded, it does feel a little bit as if we are inviting someone to 'defend' or 'justify' the actions taken by some who share their religion.

It's probably true to say that there are a great deal of followers of Islam out there who also have no idea what drives others to violence.

 

I'd have to agree with Micheal, Fergal. Religion isn't the cause of things, in most cases.

Take my home situation when I grew up. My old man was very abusive, and he professed to be a Christian. Did his Christianity cause him to be abusive? NO. Absolutely not. He would have been abusive had he not been a professing Christian.

His inner personal problems that he had never dealt with caused him to place abnormal emphasis on certain portions of the Bible. He didn't see the love that the Bible teaches. All he saw was the rules, the discipline(which should be taught as teaching a person how to discipline themselves), and the judgment taught,(which again he took out of the context the Bible places it in) and warped it into something that was abusive. He saw those things because he wanted to see those things, and if he hadn't found justification for himself in the Bible, he would have justified his actions to himself by some other means. IOW's he did what he did because he had problems, not because of what the Bible and Christianity teaches.

In later life he finally came to understand what he had been like earlier. He became much more self-introspective, much kinder, much more loving. But, that wasn't until he finally realized that the Bible teaches love, and that God is a God of love, not a God of threatening, rules, and cruelty.

Now, for me, I left Christianity behind for a very significant portion of my life. I completely rebelled against my dad's injustices and what I thought Christianity taught because I didn't realize that what I had been taught by the example of my parents wasn't the reality of what Christianity really is all about.

I've explored hedonism, far eastern religions, humanism, etc... in my life. They have nothing to offer the individual, or the world, compared to what the Bible really teaches. See, most people see sin as being bad because it's an arbitrary thing such as: God said it's bad, so it's bad. God said sin is bad because it is destructive, because it causes pain, suffering, and heartache, because it causes people to harm and destroy others and themselves. He says don't practice these things because they will harm you, your family, your friends and neighbors, and even those you don't know. Then He lays out rules of life, that if people live by, will make the world a far better place to be.

That's why sin is bad. It's not that many things that are sinful don't give pleasure. They do. I know that very well. It's that the pleasure is only fleeting, and the negative consequences far outweigh the value of the momentary pleasures. Real Christian principles are about what is good long term, for everyone, not just some individuals.

I have to say that most people who reject Christianity reject an image of Christianity that is false, not the real Christianity. Most times, I would have to agree with them too. If I thought that what they rejected really is Christianity, I would reject it also.

The true Christian life is one of joy and happiness. I don't miss what I have left behind. I left it behind because I realized I had found something far better. I've found I can enjoy life without having to get drunk, without having to take advantage of someone else, and by sharing what I have with others just because it is the right thing to do to share with someone else because you actually do love others. There's a satisfaction in a life lived well, by good principles, by standing for what is right because it is right and good, and dedicated to something, and someone, greater than myself that simply cannot be found anywhere else in life. That's why there are Christians who will remain Christians even though it costs them dearly in terms of this world and its possessions.

 

Very well put Freddy.

Can somebody sum up what Islam teaches in a similar way I wonder?
I'd be interested to hear it.

 

To that I say, sure it does. But to a follower of Islam it should be a joy to "defend" their faith. I'd like to hear from some Muslims too. I'd like their input. I know I always enjoyed talking to Mohammed, the Egyptian guy I worked with. As I'm a small town American, I rarely meet a Muslims simply because Muslims are not very common where I live. He was the only Muslim I've ever met and gotten to know, and I truly did like the guy. He "defended" his religion and culture well, and he did so without being defensive. I found much of value in what he said, and who he was. I still consider him to be a friend, one of the "good guys", and it's been close to a decade since I last saw and talked to him.

 

I agree, well put.

I myself walked away from CHristianity. But I had different circumstances, Grew up with my mum, have a very good relationship with her. Not so great with my Dad, but religion wasnt the cause of it. Hell, I actually went to a Scripture Union camp when I was about 12.

I largely grew away from it because the teachings just didnt sit right with me. Do I believe Jesus existed? Yes, although likely not in the form that the bible teaches. Do I believe in the creator? yep, but again not strictly in the form taught. I didnt like the concept of just believing something to be the case because someone (or the bible) told me to believe in it.

The bible is something that never sat right with me, either. I just cant believe the so called words of God in a book that has repeatedly been revised and edited many times (Sorry, what version have you got? King James Edition?). Far too many people read the bible and interpret it literally. If the book says a snake is a spade, then that is the case. I prefer those Christians who prefer to seek the meaning behind the words - If it is the word of god, THATS where its going to be.

I have, and continue to, challenge my beliefs. I will willingly entertain any debate on religions and, if I feel its right, will incorporate the point brought up into my own belief system. Should I ever find a religion that just feels totally right, I'll convert, but I havent yet and doubt I ever will.

I doubt any of you devout <enter religion here> will agree with this, you just cant seem to ever, but my belief system (A Hybrid of Paganism combining some aspects of Christianity i DO agree with, for the most part) has just as much chance of being correct as yours. Faith systems are built around faith. If we had proof, it wouldnt be faith. We could both die tomorrow and find mines is right, or equally, that yours is right. None of us know for sure. None of us will know until we enter the clearing at the end of the path.

Couple that, if you managed to avoid choking on it, with the fact that most religions teach that God will punish the sinners/unbelievers/blasphemers/etc himself, either in life or after, and I pretty much believe that people should be allowed to do what they want as far as it comes to religion. If someone wants to draw a blasphemous picture, let them. It doesnt harm you or your faith, so let it go. If your belief is right, they will be punished.

I'll stop on a tenet thats central to most in the (largely modern) category of Pagan: 'An it harm none, do as thou will'

 

I will very much agree with you on your views of faith. If something were provable by logic or physical evidence alone, it would not require faith to believe in it.

What I will say about your experience with Christianity is that you were most likely taught an external form of Christianity, not a Christianity that focuses on the individual's personal relationship to, and with, God. Most people are taught that, and I agree, if you see Christianity as an external religion, it really isn't of any more value than any other religion. Knowing God is what really makes Christianity come alive. It was not until I found out that God loves me, as an individual, and wants to have a personal, abiding relationship with me as my friend, that I found what makes Christianity so much different than any other religion.

Jesus said, My peace I leave with you. My peace I give unto. If you really look at Christ's life you will find that he had an inner peace that allowed him to remain calm and considerate of others under conditions which would have any of the rest of humanity extremely stressed out and angry. The only things you will ever find him angry about are things that harmed someone other than himself. Until you experience that peace, personally, you've never really experienced Christianity. You, and others, may very much disagree with that, but it's what I have found common among all devout Christians who will sacrifice all other things to what they believe in, and live by. They know what that abiding presence means, and they value it above all else, simply because it is worth more than the rest of everything combined.

 

If everyone is ok with the current exchange of thoughts represented by the last several posts, it's ok by me, but keep in mind the current discussion isn't a reflection of why I created this thread in the first place.

 

I always laugh when people come out with the 'right to free speech'. This does not exist. We are all constrained by laws to temper what we can and cannot say. For example, go and deny the Holocaust and see how far you go without being arrested.

I am a Muslim and the Prophet Mohammed. Peace and Blessings of Allah be Upon Him (PBUH), is more dear to me (and any other Muslim) than our own families. It hurts us when someone insults any Prophet of God (Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc) nevermind the Greatest Human being to walk the earth!

Anyway, I will leave it up to God to punish, or otherwise, Vilks and others of his ilk.

 

LOL. Trip, as soon as a Muslim will come "defend" their faith, it will go right back on topic. I really wish to hear from some Muslims. I know they are out there. I'd like to hear from them.

However, I think it is still on target somewhat because was not this entire thread asking why the difference in reactions? In my mind we have only been exploring why Christians, at least most Christians, don't react violently to insults to their religion. To answer the question at the core of the thread requires in-depth analysis of what each religion is, and teaches, doesn't it? I don't see how else the question can be answered. If you do, please enlighten me as to how you think it can be done. I'm always interested in another way of viewing things.

 

First of all mrlogic, thanks for responding. I know I'd really appreciate any insights you have into this topic. Let me ask you something. You said that it hurts us (Muslims) when someone insults any of the prophets including Jesus, Moses, and Abraham. If the cartoonist in question had drawn a picture of the head of Jesus or Moses or Abraham on the body of a dog, do you think that the same reactions from Muslims would have occurred? In other words, would the major Islamic nations have demanded an apology from the cartoonist and from Sweden? Do you believe Al Queda would have still offered a reward for the death of the artist? According to what you have said, this should be the case but as in the example of the "Chocolate Jesus", it was a few Christians (and it seems specifically Catholics) that provided the death threats rather than any Muslims. I'd appreciate any ideas or insights you might have here. Thanks again.

 

OK, here's a thought - going back to topic a bit.

Bearing in mind what Freddy said earlier about affluent societies.

Are we mistaking culture for religion?

For example:
In the western world, we tend to be more relaxed about a lot of things, because ultimately, we have it 'easy'.
But there are still differences.

Stereotypes aside, the British tend to 'not kick up a fuss', and maybe this is reflected in our support for religion.
If someone disagrees with our belief, fine, after all, it's OUR belief.
Christianity would be considered to be the 'main' religion in the UK - but I suspect at the moment statistics may prove otherwise.

The Mediterranean's are a bit more exciteable. They get a bit more passionate. There is hugging and kissing,
but also shouting and slapping. It's nothing to do with their religion.
If someone disagrees with your belief, you may slap them and call their mother a tart.

Then we have the Islam nations.
If anything, they seem even more passionate - and also tend to be less affluent.
They are used to fighting and violence, just to survive or be recognised.
If someone disagrees with your belief, you pull a gun and start clipping grenades to your flack jacket.

So, going back to Trip's original point, and taking into account Freddy's posts:

Is it religion that spawns the suicide bomber, or is it the culture?

And to that matter - what impact does religion play in culture?

 

Hi MrLogic.

That is a very good point.
Thank you for joining this thread.
I think we are all interested to hear you views, as it will no doubt help us to understand how things are.

Would you be able to explain what you mean by 'It hurts us'?
How does it make you feel, and what sort of response do you consider appropriate in these circumstances?

 

Chaps....

I just read all of this thread and blimey! so many different types of questions here, but i'll try and answer some of them...

you all know that i aint really good at explaining things, but i'll try my best anyway, so here goes! (oh yeah, there are my views btw)

Culture - Islam is a peaceful religion, teaches your to love and respect other people and their beliefs, regardless whether they are Muslim or not. But somewhere, somehow, these suicidal bombers blow up buildings, cars or whatever and kill loads of innocent people believing that this is right, e.g. 9/11 / 7/7 > these innocent people are victims, they have not done no harm to no one, there is nothing to justify these types of Murders, which is what it is. Of course, loads of Muslims are killed aswell, but they'll say its "In The Name of Allah", or Freedom Fighters... No where in the Quran does it say, to kill Innocent people, yes, Innocent people will get killed in War, which of course is a different situation... If someone (country) was attacking your homeland, then stand up and fight your ground, or worse attacking your Religion then you can say, you are Freedom Fighter and / or fighting "In The Name of Allah"

Why, they do this, I have no idea, the assumption i can make is that it is somehow related to the 9/11 bombings, Islam was in the Media world wide, obviously for the wrong reasons, so maybe, as that cartoon pic was drawn.

Yes, to me that is an Insult, and i would say, i'll kill that b@stard if i had a chance too, but i would never take it that far, why? cuz in anger you say stuff that you dont truly mean, its the way i have been bought up, its the society i live in for me not to go that far... ...however, those that had/have a rough life, and had/have to fight just to survive, then to them, they will go that bit more than me as its "normal", but it doesn't mean i dont love my religion, family or self less than they do!

you hear on the news that loads of angry mobs, why is that? i dunno, cuz when i look outside in my neighbourhood and surrounding areas, yes, i see pissed off people, but not angry mobs! ...again, its where you are in the country, perhaps, if you live in a more of a Muslim area (as in more Muslims that other religions, you know what i mean), then perhaps, you will see an angry mob, and the media, being the media, will catch the worst of the situations, as them to come down to my area, you wont see that, and i can gurantee it...

Muhammed (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) both are our Prophets, of course, i will be offended or 'hurt' if anyone will to insult any of them... "Chocolate Jesus" cartoon that was drawn, was something I did not hear about. Jesus (pbuh) to Muslims is one of the most important Prophets, and why the "wo-haa" did not happens when the scupture come out? Perhaps because the show was cancelled and was not published as much as these cartoons, but then i could be totally wrong here as i am guessing...

im not a religious person, i know my "basics" and do the "basics", i know what is right andwrong, no matter what religion anyone is in, each religion teaches us the difference between "good" and "evil" and "right" and "wrong"...

 

I've actually wanted in the past to learn some more about various religions. This is something I think everyone should do.

To that end and, spurred on by this thread, I have been looking for free copies of the Quran, and come up with the following links
For US
For UK

These resources are more of less free (Except shipping). Why not consider picking up a copy to study?

 

Thanks for responding, Mr. Cheeks. Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly.

Islam is a peaceful religion and the Quran teaches followers of Islam to love and respect other people, regardless of what their belief system is.

Islam does not condone the murder of innocent people.

Nothing in the Quran justifies suicide bomb attacks such as those that occured on 9/11 and 7/7 which killed many innocent people including Muslims.

I understand that if someone were attacking my country, I as a citizen would not only have a right but a desire to defend my nation (of course, this is why countries maintain Armies).

You would (and please correct me if I've got this wrong) find it equally insulting if a cartoonist drew an insulting picture of Mohammad or Jesus.

If you suffered such an insult, your first response would be to say you'd kill the b@st@rd if you could but you'd never actually go as far as killing the person in question.

You believe that Muslims who live more difficult lives perhaps such as those who live in Middle Eastern countries, may be more prone to expressing their anger because they've had to fight harder to defend their nations and their faith.

You say that the "chocolate Jesus" display in the U.S. (actually, in my home state of Nebraska) did not result in a strong response from Muslims because the exhibit was pulled before it became widely known.

Have I got all this straight so far?

Here are somethings I'm struggling with in trying to understand.

To the best of my recollection, I've never heard of a Muslim stating in the media that they were at all upset over any insult to Jesus or Moses. For instance, I remember when the film "The Last Temptation of Christ" was released to the theatres (there was one scene when Jesus was on the cross of him hallucinating that he was having sexual relations with Mary Magdaline) that Christians went ballistic (well not quite) and started picketing movie theatres, demanding that the movie not be shown. I don't recall any other faiths joining in these demonstrations.

If someone drew an insulting cartoon about Jesus or Moses and put it in the media (and it does happen...especially in certain Middle Eastern publications), I might feel insulted, and I might become angry, but having seen such cartoons, I can honestly say that I didn't really consider killing the artist over it. If that happened in the U.S. and the cartoon was drawn by a non-faith aligned person, I'd probably conclude that they were just one more loose cannon and they'd fade away after their 15 minutes of fame. If they represented a faith that opposed mine, I wouldn't like it, I'd feel insulted, some part of me would want to "get even" (and I've felt this way) but ultimately, I'd have to conclude that to live out my faith the way my Creator wants me to, I couldn't reduce myself to that level.

I know that when Salman Rushdie published "The Satanic Verses" that it wasn't an on-the-fringe group that put a price on his head, it was the Iranian Ayatollahs...the Islamic religious leaders of that country. When interviewed, the former pop singer who originally was named Cat Stevens (he changed his name when he converted to Islam) said he agreed with the decision to put Rushdie under a death sentence. In more recent times (after 9/11) when interviewed, he recanted that statement but I can't possibly know what he's thinking.

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all profess to be peaceful faiths and that their core theologies do not include hurting others or waging war on those who are unlike them. I've never read the Quran but I regularly study the Torah and the rest of the Bible and although the Bible is a complex document that does have violent sections, the G-d of the Bible does not arbitrarily seek harm on anyone because, He created all people. We are all His children and He wants us all reconciled to Him.

His followers, regardless of what faith they profess, are a different story, at least some of them. We're all human so we all fail G-d everyday. Jesus said the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" applied not only to actual homicide, but even having angry or murderous thoughts toward another person (Jew, Christian, or not). So even if someone opposes my faith and insults me or my Creator (or one of His prophets), I am allowed "righteous anger" (think of Jesus kicking the money changers out of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem...His Father's House), but to think and especially to act murderously towards that person would be against the commandment.

I wish I was always a perfect and obediant servant, but there are times when I'm not. That said, G-d is the true author and deliverer of both mercy and justice and as difficult as it is for me to leave all that in His hands sometimes, that is my duty.

Do I get angry at others sometimes? Yes. Do I sometimes harbor angry and even violent thoughts towards others sometimes? Yes. Would I ever, ever claim that my G-d and my Messiah ordered me to kill someone for insulting them or that the Bible in any way justifies me in committing murder, the answer is an unequivicible No and that's where the problem is for me in understanding the situation that started this thread.

I can't understand how, no matter how insulted and angry Muslims get over this kind of insult and even those who feel they must threaten death in defense of the Prophet Mohammad, why they can say that their faith supports such an action. I know mine doesn't. What am I missing?

 

Sorry to interrupt when you are asking Mr. Cheeks but I believe people interprate their particular relgious writings differently.

And that is the failing of man and woman and thats why you have different sects so to speak who believe in one way and some who believe in a slghlty different way.

I have never read the Quran but I am sure it does not say kill none believers, it may say something along the lines of get the none believer to see it our way. Then some people might see that as saying get them to convert or destroy them