Warning! Controversial Thread: " Artist defiantly draws Prophet Mohammed"

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I'll try to strengthen my message. This thread is *not* about which religious system is "right". Sure, I have my beliefs but this thread isn't about my beliefs as such. It's about whether one's faith supports violent threats or acts as a response to being insulted. I mean it's one thing if someone pointed a gun at my head and said "I'm going to kill you because of your beliefs". In that case, if I had to act violently to protect my life, there's nothing in my faith that says I shouldn't do it ("turning the other cheek" is first century rabbinic idiom for "if someone verbally insults you, go ahead and let them insult you again without arguing back", not "let someone beat the snot out of you").

On the other hand, if someone came up to me and said, "I hate your G-d/Prophet/Savior and here's an insulting picture of them buggering a pig", my response wouldn't be to punch them out or to threaten to kill the person or to key their car. Maybe I'd think the person was a "nut" but I wouldn't go ballistic on them. I would just be another character with a theological ax to grind.

As far as any fringe groups whether they be Muslim, Christian, or Jewish (or anything else), their beliefs and behavior has to be compared to the mainstream theology of the faith to determine if they really are an accepted part of that faith or just a bunch of crazies who *claim* that faith because they think it gives their group a legitimate position.

The KKK still exist although it's rare for them to burn crosses on peoples' lawns these days. They are an example of a group that claims a Christian connection without having any of their beliefs supported by the actual tenets of Christian faith. You'll find radicals attached to any religious, political, or other movement but that doesn't mean they really belong or are even covertly supported by the mainstream.

On the other hand, when those various pictures of the Prophet Mohammad were given public air, there were riots in a number of major cities over the very existence of those drawings. When the World Trade Center was destroyed, there was dancing in the streets of Ramallah and in both cases, there was not just a few radicals or fanatics involved but many seemingly "ordinary" citizens from various walks of life who participated.

I've heard what Muslims in this country (yes, there are Muslims even in Idaho) say and how they align themselves with the teachings of peace and yet what I see in this latest news story and in so many stories already published I don't understand.

EDIT: Again, this is *not* a debate of Christian vs. Muslim. There is no competition implied. I really want to try and understand why an ordinary person who is a Muslim might seriously want to kill an artist or at least support the killing of an artist because they draw a cartoon.

 

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I think your feedback trip has answered it's self. Wrong, Wrong and Wrong is violent regardless of believe and I can say this with great confident that sincere human beings do not advocate violent whether right or wrong. No one can create a human life, so why then should they justice this through believe, faith or religion?

I am not pushing my believes on anyone but since this is an opportunity to share light into precious lives of those who don't know or believe in doing what's right. If I see someone stone drunk about to be killed by a car, I have two choices let them know or two say nothing. What's your take on this Trip?, be honest.

 

You are aware that Evolution is a result of natural select over many generations, right? We're talking about minor mutations in a single gene or collection of genes that produce a benefit over those without the gene, and we're talking about thousands of generations before that mutation is commonplace. You aren't going to see a chimp evolve into a man in your lifetime - for a start, an individual organism doesnt evolve, its the species. Personally I see no reason why both cant be true: god created life and guided the evolution of us into the form we are in today. From a creators perspective, it would a piece of p*ss to change the environment to ensure that it was ideal for a particular attribute to develop, if they chose to do so.

On topic, I think the general consensus is respect and be respected. At the same time, nothing justifies a response of death threats or attempts, not even religion.

 

First, I just want to restate my concerns that I'm creating a Christian vs. Muslim thread here which is not the case. In stating (or perhaps overstating) my disclaimer, I just want to make sure we are all clear about what I'm trying to discover.

As far as what my personal beliefs are, I've stated them in numerous other threads. My beliefs are consistent with Christianity however viewed through a much more hebraic rather than hellenistic lens (my congregation doesn't believe that the "law" (Torah) and grace are mutually exclusive). What I'm trying to understand is if there is a fundamental difference in how faiths respond to insults and what responses are justifiable *within that faith's context*. There have been tons and tons of cartoons insulting Islam, Christianity, and Judaism as well as novels that have been written critical to each of those faiths. While people have become highly upset and even protested publically such as when the film "The Last Temptation of Christ" was released, multitudes of Christians didn't riot in several major cities or threaten to kill the director of the film. When the Mel Gibson movie "The Passion of the Christ" was released, while Jews all over the world did become concerned, anxious, and even publicly object to some of the film's content (which was interpreted as anti-semetic and let's get real, historically after every "Passion Play" there's been a major pogram), there were no large groups of Jews rioting and demanding Mel Gibson be killed.

Yet (as another example) author Salman Rushdie today still have to watch his back after a death sentence was leveled against him for writing the novel "The Satanic Verses" in the 1980s. If Rushie had written a novel insulting Jesus or Moses, maybe, maybe one or two fringy nutcases would want to take him on and probably a lot of people would have loudly complained, but the man wouldn't have had to go underground for fear of his life.

I just don't understand the justification for this and how it can be ok.

Ok, yes I *know* it's not ok...but how can believers in Mohammad and the Koran believe it's ok and if they don't, where is the public denouncement of such behavior from Muslims in Sweden, not to mention Iran, Iraq and every other predominately Islamic nation?

 

What made me laugh about that was the fact that the person who issued the death threat against Rushdie hadn't even read the Satanic Rituals - if he had of read it he would have realised that it was a shite book!!! Instead the person in question decided to give Mr Rushdie free publicity thereby making him a millionaire - the person in question was Ayatollah Khomeini!

 

Interesting thread. I think there does seem to be a big difference in this day to how people from different faiths behave, but I'm not sure it is only to do with what is written in the religion's teachings. There are passages within the Koran that specify death as the punishment for certain transgressions the rest of us consider potty, but muslims who take a literal reading of these teachings want those prescriptions to be carried out. But there are many passages in the Bible that do the same!, yet in this day and age Christians interpret these passages less literally (and violently). Why, I wonder?

The freedoms we have in the West to have our own beliefs - or no beliefs at all - were in fact hard won. They were not handed down by some benevolent decree, but were fought over and thousands died to achieve them. It is numbered in millions the number who died in the Christian churches' different inquisitions and crusades - they are hardly in a position to cast first stones in this argument. Even in the 18th century it was a capital offence in much of western europe to be proved an atheist. I think, with respect, that Trip and some other contributors have a very short-term view of history and are looking at the present state of things without that perspective.

Which isn't to say that wondering how people's beliefs can turn them into such savage monsters isn't valuable - whether it's modern day Al Qaida, or atheistic fanatics such as Pol Pot (or Millwall fans...) or the countless brutalities of the ancient worlds. It is some darkness in all of us; and the veneer of civilization is very thin. But why is it belief that strips that layer away so viciously?


(And as a separate footnote - the scientific theory of evolution has NEVER stated that we are descended from chimps - but that we and chimps and other primates had a common ancestor, and that on the evolutionary tree, their branch is closest to ours - as is evidenced by DNA studies. - But that is a different thread.)

 

Because I don't live with Crusaders of the 900s or witch-hunters of the 1700s... I live in the 2000s. To survive in THESE times, I only have to know how those people groups believe and function TODAY. It does me no good to think that someone from England is warlike and hostile against me because England was at war with the Colonies in the 1700s.

Not saying history isn't important... but I'm analyzing people of today... not people 150, 500, or 1000 years ago.

 

Hah ha hahha, brilliant!!!!

 

This is my reply to Tripwire original thread on the cartoon.

To understand Islam, you have to understand historical facts. Islam was founded in 650AD approx by Prophet Mohammed who originated in Arabia. It spread to Syria, Iraq, North Africa and Asia Minor by the sword. Did you know that for over 1000 years after Islam's birth that Europe was besieged by Islam. Spain was conquered by Moors, Eastern Europe was ravaged by Ottoman Empire and even France was nearly conquered. If France was islamised than Western Europe christain heritage would have been destroyed and Europe would have had no future. Also, Spain drove the Moors away. There were many wars between Isam and Christainity and a lot of bloodshed but Islam was defeated in France in an epic battle at Poiters and later in sea battle at Leponto. From 1600AD, islam was waning.

OK, if you wish to know more, I suggest you read a book on "The Great Heresies" by Hilaire Belloc. Its tells you all. This book is a masterpiece.

InspClouseau

 

I didn't know all of that. Thanks

 

But the thread is about faiths, and the basic tenets of islam and christianity are not recent, nor have recently changed: why are modern christians less violent and fanatical than modern muslims?

 

This is bound to get very controversial.....

If you go back through the Old Testament(OT)you will find laws for the Isrealites that required them to take care of even the "stranger" within their gates as kindly as if they were the person's best friend. That terminology meant "everyone" who was not Isrealite. Yes, you will see tales of warfare and bloodshed, but that does not mean that this was the ideal that God had wanted the Isrealites to reach. God works with people where they are in their lives. He accepts them there, and then asks them to move forward. To leave their past behind and become a new person with new ideals, new motives, and a new heart. A heart ruled by the principle of disinterested love for God, and love for your fellow man, rather than a heart ruled by self interest. This message permeates every part of the OT, and Jesus came to sweep away the misconceptions about God, His character(in other words, who He really is), and His love that had built up over the centuries.

The message of the New Testament (NT) is the revitalizing of what had been lost sight of in the OT teachings by the time of Christ. That message is clearly one of disinterested love for our fellow man. A message that says to set self interest aside and work for the good of man, not just the what's seemingly good for yourself.

That people who claim to be Christians have not followed that message is very clear. It's a hard thing to sacrifice self interest. It's hard to set aside your own wants and desires and place God's principles as the highest priorities in your life. It is not a natural thing to do for anyone, but God says He will help. His help just requires us to make the decision. He then fulfills His promises in the Bible of giving us a new heart, and writing His laws in our hearts and minds, and making us new people.

However, God will not force anyone to accept His rulership in their life. Yes, their are consequences if you don't, but there are consequences to everything in life. That's why so many people who claim to be Christians do not live by Christian principles, do not practice them in all facets of their lives. Thus outsiders who can see only the outward claims see a problem with Christianity. That's not the problem, it's the un-surrendered parts of each Christian's heart and life that cause them to live other than how God asks us to live.

Now, as to how the above relates to this thread. I have never seen anything in the Muslim faith that says the same. It's a works based religion, and as the Bible says, no man can change his own heart, his own desires. The human heart is deceitful. I don't think anyone can argue with that. Only God has the power to change the human heart, and if your religion doesn't teach you that a change of heart is needed, then the unregenerate human heart lives unchecked, with all its passions, hatreds, bigotry, faults, etc....

That's not saying that there are not some really great Muslim people. I worked with an Egyptian guy for several months one time. He was basically my supervisor, and he was one of the most interesting people I have ever met. I really liked him. We could sit and talk by the hour, and did at times. I had him over to our house for supper several times, and we would discuss the differences between our religions and our cultures. I think we both learned a lot. He was a laid off Boeing engineer, and when Boeing called him back to work he moved away. He and I kept in touch for 3 or 4 years but just slowly fell out of touch. But, I still think of him every once in a while, and wonder how he is doing.

With the above basic differences in the teachings of Christianity and the Muslim faith I can see why there is more violence coming from Muslims. Their faith was spread by the sword for many centuries. It was a core of their beliefs, not a misapprehension used by people consumed by greed and bigotry such as the Crusaders. Thus a fundamentalist Muslim would not think violence is necessarily a bad thing when it comes to the defense of their religion.

The Christian, on the other hand, has the example of Christ and His self sacrifice as the core tenet of their belief system.

We are/become/live by what we believe in. That's a fundamental law of human nature. If we believe that dissipation is a valid life style and see nothing wrong with it, we will live a dissipated life. If we see nothing wrong with stealing from our fellow man, we will steal. If we believe that all men are created equal, we will live that way. If we believe honesty is great virtue and principle to be lived by, then we will be honest.

How we live, how we react, to everything, comes from the core beliefs every individual holds in their heart-of-hearts. That is simply a truth of human nature that cannot be denied.

 

As Freddy so eloquently stated (rep given and deserved), the Crusaders were obviously not following Christian tenets.

Why are modern Christians less violent and fanatical than modern Muslims? No idea. I know it's not part of the Christian faith. Perhaps that's just what Muslims believe to be correct; I can't pretend to know because I haven't studied the Koran.

 

I've read the Wiki article on Islam and a few of the sub-articles.

It's quite interesting.
It seems to me that Islam as a faith is much more a way of life, and not 'just' a religious belief.
I think it binds people on an everyday basis far more strictly than, say, Christianity.

But, more importantly, there are no references in there about violence or death threats being part of the culture - the very opposite in fact.

Apparently, during war, muslim soldiers aren't allowed to occupy non-muslim buildings without permission, and even if it is granted, they are supposed to pay the owner.

Even Jihad doesn't mean 'going nuts and trying to kill a bloke for looking at your god in a funny way' - which I always thought it did.

So where has this perceived culture of violence come from?
It isn't from Islam itself.

 

Actually, the truly observant of all faiths are to consider it a way of life and not just a "religion". That said, there are members of all faiths who do not truly "walk the walk" but merely "talk the talk". Also, while wikipedia can be a great information source for many things, it stands outside of those subjects so may have a limited perspective on all things Islamic, Christian, and Jewish. I'm sure it would take a great deal more research for any of us who are not Muslims to truly understand the history and practice of Islam. That's the whole point of my creating this thread. I was hoping for some specific insights into this behavior...especially given what you read on wikipedia, JonnyMX. The information you present from that source seems highly inconsistent with what I've posted from the media.

 

Yes, it does, doesn't it.
That's my point really.

Like I said in a previous post, I know little about Islam so I was doing some light-hearted research - because I find it quite interesting.

If it's inconsistent with the media reports, sorry - I'm just making an observation.

I consider myself agnostic, so I don't really have any bias towards any religion.

 

Johnny,

One thing you will find if you do much research into Christianity is that in Western countries that are wealthier you will find far more profession without actually living what people say they believe than you will in poorer countries and in places where persecution exists. Monetary wealth in a society seems to go hand-in-hand almost with profession-of-faith rather than living-a-faith. Those Christians who are Christians where it really means something, i.e. you are a Christian at your own peril, live a much more devout faith. That's not saying there are not devout Christians in wealthy countries, just that they are much smaller percentage of the people claiming to believe. People are just much less likely to make a profession if making that profession means it may cost them something to do so, such as prison time, loss of property, job, social standing, etc.... That's when you find out who really believes or not, and what Christianity really is.

In wealthy countries where persecution doesn't exist what Christianity really is lost behind the veil of wealth and ease. Many people become more concerned about what they have than what they profess to believe.

 

I guess that's true.

So if we're saying that the less affluent countries are likely to have a more passionate view on religion, does this explain the level of violence that is being attributed to Islam?

There are many Islamic countries that are less well off than say Europe, and we often see these countries involved in violence.

I'm trying to think of a Christian country where similar circumstances exist where we could make a comparison - but I can't...

 

I'm almost beginning to wish 'god' was still around, this would have been right up his street, literally.....