The image Microsoft doesn't want you to see

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by drum_dude, Apr 21, 2010.

  1. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    You're right... it makes people not want to work. But that problem has to do with how MUCH people are paid on benefits (and how long they are allowed to collect benefits), not how LITTLE people are paid in minimum wage jobs.

    I didn't talk about what was said because it was absolutely off topic, and the parts that were on topic regarding China, you have absolutely no clue about.

    I get it. I'm talking to an AI construct, aren't I? Which one of you guys set this up? :p

    If everyone's pay is increased, some companies might still be profitable... but others might not be. But whether they are or not, the question is moot: Companies are not in business to keep people employed... they are in business to make as much money as possible! They aren't responsible for making sure you get enough money to get fed! They are responsible for making sure that they turn a profit. That's all, nothing more.

    If that's all they can do, then that's all they can do. Should we give them more money simply because they are disabled? :rolleyes:

    Not when "living wage" to most people means cell phones, cable TV, computers, Internet, game systems, two relatively new cars, and multiple flat-screen TVs... :rolleyes:

    Yeah, it sucks. But people are willing to do the job for less money. And for them, it's a LOT of money compared to what other people in their country are getting.

    So how would you go about regulating something like that? Require companies to hire only inside the country where they are headquartered? What about Microsoft, which is an international country? How would you require that they hire only within the US? What would be YOUR solution?
     
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  2. IT2009

    IT2009 Byte Poster

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    I will just leave you play with my words becaise it just makes wasted posts. I think it is clear to you what I am talking about.
    I will just paste you this text. It is from 1891 and I think if people would inforce laws to protect working people than it would be better. And by the way, from your writing it sounds like you are benefiting from this system.

    * "Wealthy owners of the means of production and employers must never forget that both divine and human law forbid them to squeeze the poor and wretched for the sake of gain or to profit from the helplessness of others." (#17)

    * "As regards protection of this world’s good, the first task is to save the wretched workers from the brutality of those who make use of human beings as mere instruments for the unrestrained acquisition of wealth." (#43)

    * "Care must be taken, therefore, not to lengthen the working day beyond a man’s capacity. How much time there must be for rest depends upon the type of work, the circumstances of time and place and, particularly, the health of the workers." (#43)

    Rerum Novarum, Pope Leo XIII, 1891
     
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  3. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    ...and I think it is unclear to you what I am talking about.

    I'm not playing with your words... I'm simply addressing your points. Yet you fail to answer mine.

    Uh, no. I'm a plain-old salaried worker, with no ownership in any company. Sorry. Thanks for playing, but your snipe missed.

    Then those people should get a different job if they feel they are being taken advantage of.

    If those people feel they are being taken advantage of, they should get another job. Simple as that.

    I'm with Simon... it sounds like you have a huge chip on your shoulder.

    That's why we already have labor laws that dictate this sort of thing. And if you're going back to the original post, there's nothing to prove that this is indeed happening in the article in question.

    But assuming for a moment that Chinese companies ARE forcing their employees to work an excessive number of hours, what would you like us to do about it? Invade China? What is YOUR plan?

    Every time I ask one of these questions, you fail to answer them. Why?
     
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  4. Sparky
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    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    Wish it was that now. :biggrin

    As I said a few days ago, can we either get this back to topic or just let the thread end.
     
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  5. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    As one of the parties in the off-topic discussion, I agree with this suggestion. If IT2009 wants to continue ignoring my posts, she can create another thread to do so.
     
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  6. Sparky
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    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    :thumbleft
     
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  7. IT2009

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    I suggested to open new topic and appologised for being off topic. But still all discussion continued here quite spontaneously.
    I don't ignore you Boson, but it is waste of my time to reply to you when you are twisting my points.
    I am fine with this tread to end. We all said what we think. Just don't get one thing - why do I have to have chip on my shoulder? Why is it assumed because to me was absurd that minimum wage doesn't meet living wage? Then I can assume that you are all bosses employing cheap labour to work 24/7 and who knows what else you are up to? :cheeseyg One question and too many assumptions. Oh well... Any way, it was nice discussing with you.
     
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  8. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Wish I could say the same... because no "discussion" was had. It was all pretty much one-way - you ignored my points and never answered my questions.
     
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  9. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    Mike's being a bit disingenuous with the 'get another job' routine. I won't take issue with most of what he's said - simply because political arguments get you nowhere. However, simply saying that a sweatshop labourer should 'get another job' if they don't like it is ludicrous. There aren't any other jobs. The problem is that the companies running the sweatshops have ensured that theirs is the only game in town, the native population has little choice but to work 90 hour weeks in ****ty conditions, earning barely enough to feed themselves and their families, making clothes for about $2 that sell for $200, earning the factory owners a comparitivie fortune, which, sadly, is still utter chickenfeed compared with the wages of the CFO who thought "I know, I'll shut all our production down in the US/Europe/Mexico/India and offshore it all to Taiwan, putting 10,000 people out of work, call the reasoning behind it 'market forces' and then move on to the next company and gut them". I'm obviously paraphrasing here and using a clothing company as an example, but the same principle applies to every other company that manufactures goods offshore in places that use slave labour.

    Like I said earlier, it's completely pointless arguing about it, because there isn't an alternative. I haven't done the maths (I'm not an economist), but I reckon that if we carry on the way we are, we've got about 40-60 years before we end up at the 'endgame' for capitalism in it's current incarnation - whereby even in countries like the US and UK, wealth is so unevenly distributed that the top 0.5% of the population will control around 90% of the wealth (a figure that is already the norm in most countries in Africa and South America). It can't continue (no amount of printing extra money can prop the system up now it's reached a tipping point) so something has to change somewhere - but God/Yahweh/Allah/The Flying Spaghetti Monster help us all if it does, because the only thing that will sort it out is a global conflict.
     
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  10. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Not saying that a sweatshop labourer should get another job... I'm saying the people making minimum wage in first-world countries should get another job. Remember, IT2009 wasn't discussing people in sweatshops in China... she was discussing people in low paying jobs all over the world.

    But if we *do* want to bring China into the discussion, the low pay that those people are getting in sweatshops is more than they could be making in other jobs. A hotel room costs me less than $10 in China. A rented computer and an hour of Internet time costs me about 40 cents. A whole table full of food that can feed 8 fat Americans and still have tons of food left over costs less than $20. The workers at those places *can't* be making much.

    If it would interest you, I can ask about salary conditions next time I'm there.

    I'd say we've got far less time than that, considering how things are going over here.
     
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  11. zebulebu

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    Not going to play the quote game...

    If your original remark about getting another job was aimed at people in the developed world, then I have no argument with that. It's not how I read it - but I'm not going to pull you on that, since I've no reason to doubt you. There are plenty of arguments against this as well (not the least example of which is workers in the meat-packing industry - I could give you all a nice rundown on how they've been royally f***ed by migrant labour in the US, let alone in a third-world nation) but that's not the point I was trying to make.

    The fact that they earn 'more' doing their sweatshop job than they would in a paddyfield is another argument that holds no water. We're not discussing the economic differences of scale between one country and another (we'd have to discuss exchange rates, inflation, relative values of currencies compared to local goods etc etc). What we're discussing is the immorality of removing jobs from people who want to work them, have worked them for years and are good at them - to countries where companies have no control over working conditions, safety, hours worked, job security, the minimum wage, sexual harrassment, racial, sexual, age and caste discrimination - all in the name of raising profits to keep the stock price up.

    See, it's not the principle of capitalism that I have a fundamental objection to. I long ago realised that socialism is deeply flawed as an ideology - and that capitalism is the only really successful economic system for a developed society (especially one which has the unprecedented level of connectivity, speed of transaction and globalised nature as our own society). The problem is, we have let free-market economists run utterly roughshod over all of the principles of capitalism which - when adhered to - ensure a relative balance between the need for corporate competitiveness and the welfare of the economic system's workforce. It's now utterly anathema for anyone to suggest that anything other than the Chicago school of economics be the preferred method of 'bringing a country out of the developing world and into the developed one'. Thus you have South America in the sixties and seventies, Eastern Europe in the eighties and early nineties, and now southeast Asia and the subcontinent in the late nineties and noughties. If you asked 95% of the population in South America and Eastern Europe whether free market economics have been 'good' for them, they'd tell you exactly what they thought of capitalism.

    There I go - and I said I wouldn't get dragged into a political/economic debate :)
     
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  12. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    I can't argue the morality issue - there's no defense for it. I know WHY companies do it... but the fact that they do it at all is condemnable from a morality standpoint. But what is the solution? Hoping that businesses do the "right thing" certainly hasn't worked. But how do you legislate something like that?
     
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  13. dmarsh
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    Thats why we have human rights legislation BM, read the original article, its based on a three year undercover investigation by a human rights organisation, its not a simple case of the asian habit of 'napping' as you suggested.

    I've been all over the world including most of asia multiple times also, I've witnessed 'napping' habits, doesn't mean sweatshops don't exist and you and I are unlikely to get within 10 miles of one.

    I'm sure creative minds could solve this if they wanted, international corporation legislation covering all countries of operation, trade embargoes, blacklisting, name and shame, etc. The trouble is it will not change while the people making the rules benefit from the existing system.

    Thats why we have toxic waste being processed in africa where they can't process it, child slave labour in India and China, workers just 100 miles across the border in mexico getting lung disease as they don't need same filtration health and safety systems in factories in US, Mining operations in south america putting toxic heavy metals into the water supply and other poisoneous chemicals, africa exporting all its grain while native population starve, etc, etc.

    I'd have thought as a christian you'd care more about these people...

    http://www.geek.com/articles/mobile...ncrease-to-address-suicide-attempts-20100528/

    Multiple suicide attemps, yeah, I guess their job must be better than hotel or resturant work...

    Your defense of one particular brand of capitalism at the expense of morality or basic human decency is indefensible.

    Lastly you mention how proud you are to have been a defense analyst, do have a clue to the amount of **** your countries army has pulled in the last 50 years ? Contras in south america, CIA murders in Bolivia, attempted assasination of Hugo Chavez in Venezulea, assasination of your own president JFK, Bay of Pigs Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia, where your country dropped millions of tons, more than the second world war, in munitions on innocents commiting genocide and triggered the Camere Rouge who committed further genocide, and now Iraq where women now can only have deformed babies. I certianly wouldn't shout my mouth off about it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  14. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Nice necropost, D! :p

    I read the original article... I don't believe a word of this particular one.

    Yes, they absolutely do... and considering the part of the world I go to, I'm quite likely to get within 10 miles of one.

    Yep. I agree.

    I do care about "these people". That's why I do what I do. My point is that I don't believe a word of this particular article.

    But hey, nice snipe at my Christianity. Stay classy, D. :rolleyes:

    You fail at reading my posts.

    You done ranting now?

    You're waaaaay off topic, here... sounds like you had one drink too many and just wanted to have a go at me.
     
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  15. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    Tru dat - it does sound like a rant. Not sure where the necropost came from either. Everyone knows how ridiculous US foreign policy has been, is and will continue to be. Not much point mentioning it though, since there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it.
     
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  16. Josiahb

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    Love the reference to massive conspiracy theories as well, always gives a rant that wonderful extra edge.
     
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