Just IT recruitment

Discussion in 'Employment & Jobs' started by Shinx2k6, Aug 11, 2009.

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  1. SimonD
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    SimonD Terabyte Poster

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    Chuck, unfortunately you constantly come across as a Troll, so please be a good chap and run along now.

    I have mentioned to Simon in previous phone calls that he may be better off distancing himself from the whole recruitment side of things and sticking to training, as I have mentioned there really is a stigma to companies that do both and that's because it's automatically assumed that it's a con.

    Personally speaking I really would prefer TP's to be just that, a 'TRAINING PROVIDER', leave the recruitment to other people not associated with your company, that way there is a clear demarcation point between the training company and the company trying to place you. I further believe that job agencies need to change their mentality and realise that looking out for the candidate actually makes more sense than washing their hands of them once they have moved jobs.

    Remember that a happy candidate will always remember the guy who went to bat for them than the one who forgot them as soon as they stopped bringing them in the money (and Agents, please remember this tidbit of information... what goes around, comes around. There comes a time when the candidate can also be the hiring manager and you want them on your side rather than your competitors.... so treat them nicely and maybe you will get more work because of them).
     
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  2. nugget
    Honorary Member

    nugget Junior toady

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    Absolutely.


    You call it how you see it mate. My point of view is that if you have the power or opportunity to change something (hopefully for the better) then you should try to do so. Otherwise you have no right to complain. My points were made more for the armchair experts that we seem to be gathering here. You know, the ones that offer an opinion on anything and everything no matter what and then will defend their point of view until they piss everyone off, never willing to consider changing their own point of view because they are so arrogantly sure of their own opinion.


    Just as a sort of off topic subject I'd like to share an experience with you that I had about 10 years ago when I was young and stupid. I was at a wedding party and sitting at the table with the brides uncle. At some time during the night the conversation turned to what our dreams were. I told him that my dream was to be a drag racing champion. I told him that it would never happen because I don't have the money to start and that I don't have the opportunity here in Switzerland. He said that's not the important part, the important part is that you have a dream.
    I then asked him what his dream was. He told me it was to be able to drive a Mercedes SL500. I kind of laughed at him for a moment and said that wasn't really much because he could go to the local Mercedes dealer and take a test drive. He agreed with me that it would be easy to do that and also said that it probably wouldn't even be as good as in his imagination. Then he fell silent for a minute.
    Then he raised a finger and looked at me and said, don't ever laugh or belittle another persons dream. To you it's just a ride in a car, to me it's my dream.

    I learnt a couple of things that night but the biggest one was to keep an open mind. How many of you can truly say that they have an open mind? We all make judgements every day about everything around us based on the premise that our opinions are right.
    How many of you stand behind a really fat guy in a queue and think "man that guy is disgusting, he should eat less"? How many see a nice girl walking down the street in skimpy clothing and immediately think she must be a tease? How about the guy you meet for the first time in a meeting room and you think "what an arrogant SOB". I could go on and on....
    You don't see that the fat guy has a thyroid problem or that the girl is going to dancing audition or that the business guy is distracted because he's nervous. You have your opinions right?, and how could you be wrong?

    How about we try an experiment? How about everybody watches the next game of football and instead of supporting their normal team, they support the umpire instead and try to see it from his point of view.
    To those armchair umpires that can't do this, how about you go and learn how to umpire and actually try to umpire a game without the benefit of instant slow motion replays from 15 different camera angles.

    A lot of you will have read this so far and thought WTF is he on? He's had a single malt too many. I guess this is just me venting my frustration at what I see happening to this forum with the membership turning into a collective of opinionated armchair experts.


    You say it's naive and childish to want to change the world if I can, but I say it's naive and childish if you don't.
     
    Certifications: A+ | Network+ | Security+ | MCP (270,271,272,290,620) | MCDST | MCTS:Vista
    WIP: MCSA, 70-622,680,685
  3. nugget
    Honorary Member

    nugget Junior toady

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    What's stopping you? You have access to the internet where there is more information available than in any book or training course and access to the certforums membership willing to help you out wherever possible (I hope). What's money got to do with it?
     
    Certifications: A+ | Network+ | Security+ | MCP (270,271,272,290,620) | MCDST | MCTS:Vista
    WIP: MCSA, 70-622,680,685
  4. Simon Perriton

    Simon Perriton Bit Poster

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    Sadly after all these months I have not had a call or email yet. I appreciate some of the more supportive comments coming through the forum, but the one person who is still sitting feeling very frustrated is Chuck.

    So one last request to Chuck, if you have done the programme here then contact me and lets talk. You have nothing to loose and alot to gain.

    As I have said before, my business is based on trying to help people and offer a service that allows them to gain a career in IT. Whilst we have a very high success rate, unfortunately that does not happen on all occasions. But if someone is not happy the only way we can help them and learn from their experience is to talk to them. So take the advice of others and contact me - please!

    Simon
     
  5. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    Once again, as a counterpoint to the free advertising Simon's company is getting out of the forum from his continued posts, I'd like to reiterate to anyone glancing through this thread that - contrary to the impression you may get from the post above, Simon's company is NOT a charity - his business is based on 'making money', not 'helping people'.

    DYOR
     
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  6. Simon Perriton

    Simon Perriton Bit Poster

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    You are right we are not a charity - we are a limited business - we are funded by the combination of the fees we get up front from individuals, from the pay as you earn fees once they gain employment, from income from corporate training, from room hire and from recruitment fees.

    But you cant run a business for over 10 years around the market of IT careers and training without both making money and helping people. They need to come together for a business like mine to succeed for this long. You also would not have a good reputation in this market which I am proud of and will continue to defend.

    I will continue to enjoy running Just IT whilst is is a financially sound business that succeeds because the vaste majority of people are helped by visiting us.

    I feel you are still judging my company from the very poor experiences that other people have had through companies that are no longer in existance in my market.
     
  7. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    With repect, that's not what your post says. If you'd said 'we're in the business of making money from IT training - but we try and help people along the way' - then that would have been accurate. Instead, you've used the same language you do to entice people who have no business sitting in front of a PC (let alone working in IT) plonking down thousands for a load of certifications that will be worthless to them.

    That's why I'm not judging your company by poor experiences others have had with other companies. Stop the misleading advertising and you'll get a bit more respect from people who have worked in the industry for aeons and have seen all training providers use variations of the exact same spiel.
     
    Certifications: A few
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  8. Black Tortoise

    Black Tortoise Byte Poster

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    I can remember last year starting my journey into IT. Laymans IT knowledge and no experience - thus I started looking around and chatting to IT training companies and employers.

    Suffice its to say I got the most unpleasant experience from JustIT. One their recruitment consultants, wont name any names, lets just say a lady "E" who came across as a very aggressive salesman type. Chatting to her about how I would like to train I was pretty much " career/psycho analysed" as being without any potential, especially considering my route of self study and only wanting to study only advanced certs with a TP.

    She concluded that it would be impossible for me to find work my own self study route. And even if I did pass I wouldn't have any thing to offer an employer and gave her own (or JustITs) warped "recruitment consultant/TP rationale" as to why. The only way forward was to pay for one of there courses and employment services.

    I would advise all IT rookies to steer clear of such an unscrupulous company.
     
    Certifications: N+
    WIP: A+ Security+ ITIL V3
  9. michael78

    michael78 Terabyte Poster

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    From the above I would like to know Simon if you pay your consultants commission?
     
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  10. carlosatkeele

    carlosatkeele Bit Poster

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    It would seem they do; http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSeeking/IT-Recruitment-Consultant_job49924542

    I had a meeting with JustIT a couple of months back and had quite a different experience to black tortoise. They were very positive and confident that they would be able to find me employment. I decided to self study instead though, couldn't really justify the amount of cash for the qualifications offered. The woman that I was dealing with seemed quite disappointed, as I guess it meant she was missing out on some commission.

    I have to say though, it seems very hard to find any work experience so it may not be a bad route to take. It's even hard to find volunteer work as charities need people with experience.
     
  11. michael78

    michael78 Terabyte Poster

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    To me then all credibility goes out the window for Simon. Of course any person on commission is going to push you to do a course regardless of if you are suitable or not as that is how the person makes their money. Regardless of what Simon says his sales consultants are going to sign people up that clearly shouldn't be in the first place. If I was on commission I would sign a monkey up if I thought I would get away with it.
     
    Certifications: A+ | Network+ | Security+ | MCP | MCDST | MCTS: Hyper-V | MCTS: AD | MCTS: Exchange 2007 | MCTS: Windows 7 | MCSA: 2003 | ITIL Foundation v3 | CCA: Xenapp 5.0 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator on Windows 7 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Support Technician on Windows 7
    WIP: Online SAN Overview, VCP in December 2011
  12. sidimmu

    sidimmu Bit Poster

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    I did have a meeting with Simons company a little while ago as well, the initial meeting was quite pleasant and the saleswoman was nice and understanding, spoke very good sense and was very honest with me about the company on where the money is made for their company. I also got the pleasure of meeting Simon and his business partner very briefly, was a very professional looking TP but at the end of the day it is a TP and i went down the self study option which is where i am now still.

    was mainly concerned about the speed of the course going through each certification and the work experience side of it, although needed I know, I could not find a reason to justify paying that money up front and then the rest with interest on top even after another possible option from them, in the end you will be paying a lot more back as everyone knows.

    Even with their job guarantee which did seem very genuine and very unique i did not feel it was worth well at least 4 grand to be honest with you Simon. Dont get me wrong if i had the money i probably would of signed up right there and then due to your employees professional approach, but it was just not viable for me at all.

    If anyone does feel ripped off and very confused about the fact i would give Simon a call, with meeting him i would say he seems a very intelligent and down to earth guy who will not feed you a ton of BS, but it is his business and of course will try to get you to sign up with them.

    this is just my personal experience by the way, any questions feel free to ask :)
     
  13. Black Tortoise

    Black Tortoise Byte Poster

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    Maybe this thread has given then a "change of heart". I spoke to them way back in Feb 2010 btw.
     
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  14. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    I know where you're coming from, but at the day many (if not all) sales roles are based on some kind of commission structure. That in itself doesn't make them bad.

    What does make a difference is how well these people are monitored. A salesman should only get commission for an appropriate deal. If someone is signing up tonnes of monkeys, they should be sorted out. If you can do that, you're OK.

    If on the other hand your comapany is only looking at quantity rather than quality, then unfortunately your biggest liars are always going to be salesman of the year and you're in a heap of trouble...
     
    Certifications: MCT, MCTS, i-Net+, CIW CI, Prince2, MSP, MCSD
  15. Simon Perriton

    Simon Perriton Bit Poster

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    Yes, we do pay commission. Although the job that was shown here http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSeeking/I...nt_job49924542 is a role for a recruitment consultant within Just IT Recruitment, not Just IT Training.

    JonnyMX is aware that the vaste majority of sales jobs get commission, and is right to comment that it is the way the sales people are controlled that matters. At Just IT Training we have a 2 stage interview process before people get on a programme, so people who score below a certain 'grade' will not get on the programme. I should state that we and the candidate do make mistakes and sadly not everybody finishes the programme feeling happy. The vaste majority do though.

    The commission we pay is in a number of areas. They get paid on;
    • Gaining training fees up front
    • Getting candidates on the programme who are considered by the recruitment team as being 'very strong'
    • Gaining training fees when someone has a job after the programme on the pay as you earn scheme
    • A candidate gaining a job.

    In this way we incentivise the training consultants to look for candidates who will succeed by getting a job after the programme. Success for us is people who are able to gain the certifications, do well on the work experience and communicate well and so get a job in IT.

    Its a complicated formula and one I have spent along time trying to get right.

    I hope that helps.

    Simon
     
  16. michael78

    michael78 Terabyte Poster

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    I think comparing selling someone a career to selling someone a washing machine or even insurance is slightly different. I'm sure you will get sales people that are honest and and genuinely care but you will also get the ones that would sell the course to their granny. The only time I would personally feel comfortable in the sales person getting a slice of my cash for selling me a course is upon completion of the course. It's not personal as I think across the board commission for services should be banned or very tightly regulated. I've heard the we screen part a lot and in my early career heard it first hand by a sales person. The issue I would have is who is doing the screening. I don't know the situation on this Chuckliddle guy but from his posts he didn't sound like the kind of guy that should of been accepted onto your course. Think some sales guy wanted extra cash on that day.

    Anyways I appreciate your situation Simon I suppose the problem you have is all the cowboy companies that have come before you have given your industry a bad name. I also don't think asking people doing your course to post on he about their experiences I hope you can see the problem with that. I know if I was asked to do that I certainly would post negative comments when I'm sitting in your class room or relying on your company to get me a job at the end of it. If people want to post a blog it really should be off their own back and not because they have been asked.

    The one thing I will say is that especially on here there are too many people that join the forum to whine about being scammed by company XYZ and then they leave. For most of them I don't have any sympathy as they really should of done their home work before parting with thousands of £££'s. People don't take responsibility for their own stupidity. I know when I part with my hard earned cash I do my homework regardless if I'm buying a £40 MP3 player or booking a course for £1500.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2011
    Certifications: A+ | Network+ | Security+ | MCP | MCDST | MCTS: Hyper-V | MCTS: AD | MCTS: Exchange 2007 | MCTS: Windows 7 | MCSA: 2003 | ITIL Foundation v3 | CCA: Xenapp 5.0 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator on Windows 7 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Support Technician on Windows 7
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  17. Collin Murphy

    Collin Murphy New Member

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    Today I visited the company in Liverpool St, London. My opinions about the company after reading the comments from this forum and visiting the company itself, in the next post.:hhhmmm
     
  18. Collin Murphy

    Collin Murphy New Member

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    I would agree with Michael78, as you said mate, people complain about companies, services and about being ripped off, they don't investigate or do any research about the company prior to committing themselves. I was so closed to signing up to the programme today!!!!! :ohmy

    Although I have been out of I.T sector for over 10 years and only have a HND in computing with only 3 years of working experience in the I.T industry, didn't get around to completing my graduation due to my personal circumstances when I was 23/24.

    I was made redundant in Jan 2011 from my retail management job, only then I thought to myself, now its time and an opportunity for me to get back to the industry I have always wanted to get into (Although the competition is HUGE now comparing to 10 year ago :cry:), I did some research on Google, justit.co.uk showed up along my search results, sounded very promising, especially when the company twists the wording of "job guarantee".

    I am sure all you guys collaring Simon feel near enough the same, "UPSET" (Perhaps) or maybe something worse? Well, I can assure you, I DO & DID when I visited his Liverpool Street office today. I think, Mr Simon Perriton is a "COLD SALESMAN". I currently also work in a very sales/targets focused environment and I am confident that the company's so-called "Recruitment Consultants" are nothing but "sweet talking" sales personnel. I honestly believe, what has happened in the past is that when Mr Perriton was recruiting his "Consultants" they were a lot sales, than achievement driven? Thats when the company started to have bad reputation!!! Hence, what Mr Perriton did, changed his business strategies, from having an aggressive approach to slightly flexible approach & trained his sales guys how to play with people (In needs) emotions. Obviously he did not ask them to use customer's/client's culture or religion, but some do (Well the one I confronted, he tried to :rolleyes:). That really ANNOYED my, because what hearts me is when people use GOD's name for making MONEY for their own pleasure. It really makes me :mad

    I can assure you, I can go on and on an on an on about my opinion of the company and today's experience, but!!!!! I also honestly believe if Mr Perriton was an honest businessman, really out there trying to help those individuals who are in need, genuine customer's/client's, focussed & determined to succeed in the sector they have come to him/his company for help, he would not charge such hefty initial payment(s).

    At the end of the day, even if a genuine client starts off with an initial payment of £500 and agrees to pay the remaining as he earns and justIT/recruitment consultant(s) judging, using their "experience & expertise" the client on the first two interviews that the client would succeed, that should be sufficient. I think only an idiot would pay around £500 +/- and sign a piece of paper for a future financial arguments?

    Anyway, As I said, I can go on and on..... I am not telling anybody to take my words, but to judge the company using their own initiatives. All this is just my observation of the organisation, not by reading what people have said here on this forum, but by visiting and having a direct consultation with the company myself.

    I am a grown up, mature individual and always am open to critics 8). Please feel free to criticise me and educate me, either on this thread of via my private mail address, as I believe "We learn something everyday".

    I am really grateful to this site for having such open, honest and freedom of speech forums. It assisted me, you guys assisted me in making a decision.

    God bless us all and give us courage and strength to fight in these difficult circumstances e.g. finding a job :D.

    Collin.


    I really did try to stop myself from writing all the above, but my attitude in life is, if we don't share our views, thoughts and opinions, we cannot learn from each others. I HONESTLY, REALLY didn't mean to cause anybody any disrespect or hurt.
     
  19. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    Sorry, confused.

    Are you saying they are good or bad?

    It just reads like a script from 'Yes Minister'...

    :biggrin
     
    Certifications: MCT, MCTS, i-Net+, CIW CI, Prince2, MSP, MCSD
  20. Collin Murphy

    Collin Murphy New Member

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    Dear JonnyMX

    The entire idea of the above scenario is to confuse people like you :lol:. If you read the script again using "Attention to details" skill, you will notice the following paragraph of mine:

    "Anyway, As I said, I can go on and on..... I am not telling anybody to take my words, but to judge the company using their own initiatives. All this is just my observation of the organisation, not by reading what people have said here on this forum, but by visiting and having a direct consultation with the company myself."

    In your profiles you have stated that you are 39 years old (which I hope you are, a grown up, mature individual with all the certification as you have stated. Trust me I am really thrilled for you, swear, no critics in these remarks), then by reading the entire thread or near enough most of it, you should be able to form an opinion of the company, either positive or negative.

    Just to shed light on on of the facts that I tried to point out in my script, if you are a serious businessman running a business and you have a gain of £1500 from £3500 investment, that is a profit margin of just +/- 42%, even out of which if someone is paying you at least £500 upfront with signing a contract, with that "Someone's" understanding that he/she will be asking for credit/commitment trouble for his/her future if he/she slips from that commitment, would you refuse that business?

    We are all different, and every business operates differently. I fully understand that, but, a commitment like that indicates serious business!!!!!

    This is such a vast argument that we can go on and on, but my only point was to share my views and opinions.

    Once again, as I said before:

    "I am a grown up, mature individual and always am open to critics . Please feel free to criticise me and educate me, either on this thread of via my private mail address, as I believe "We learn something everyday"."

    Collin
     

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