IT Degrees.

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Well I only completed the 1st year of a Comp Sci degree (quit for financial reasons) & that was about 10yrs ago, but I'd strongly disagree that discrete maths is complex!

It is probably the easiest & most intuitive area of mathematics I've ever encountered. In fact calling it maths is a bit of a stretch.

If you can think logically, know the meaning of a set (say, set A is apples, set B is oranges & set C is cabbages) & work out what belongs in the set of say, fruit, you'll be fine.

We did some computer science theory, some programming, Java, VB6 (I think), Turbo Pascal. Some basic electronics, etc.

Since I never showed up for the start of the 2nd year, this is all the experience I can inpart, but even the integration/curves & imaginary numbers are at a very basic level & not even close to what you would encounter with some other science degrees (I switched from physics).

I'm crap at maths & can honestly say I found the maths within a Comp Sci degree (at least the first year) to be a doddle, & only designed to introduce you to logical structures to enhance your understanding of the way a digital circuit/programming language works.

It is not a maths intensive subject IMHO.

Just logic intensive

EDIT: For the discrete maths part of the exams (drawing a Venn diagram), I found a circular snuff tin. Perfectly uniform circles every time

Hey, presentation goes a long way

 

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http://www.kingston.ac.uk/~kuweb/undergraduate/courses/G500ITforE-Business.html

I'm starting that in September and....

http://www.richmond-utcoll.ac.uk/courses/coursedetail.asp?id=321

on Monday morning.

If you're into Networking then those 2 will bring you out with a broad range of Networking ability.

 

Dunno about Richmond but I was a student myself at Kingston.

I thought it was a great place to study..

Top class gym & bar, LOADS of pubs & clubs, five minute walk from the river & some very good company. the college (which is where you'll study your foundation year, but still have full Uni 'rights & priveleges', is great & if your're funded, it will be a Uni grant)

Effing loved it.

Also the halls are really good.

 

Hello Ravneet,

I'll give you my advice, like you I'm not to good with maths, but I found that the best course to learn some basic knowledge of computing, is to learn how some of the Microsoft Windows applications actually work, essentially, learn how to use them.

I took the European Computer Driving Licence, (there is probably an American version??) learn how to use M$ Word,
Excel, Access. These basics are often used in a university, but universities don't actually teach you how to use them!

Something which again has not been said is about the final mark you get when you take a higher education course or degree and that is more important than what you actually take.
Businesses tend to like a better qualification in anything, any subject, providing it's a very good mark, sad but true.

I obtained a degree (in Britain, degrees are broken down into 3 sub levels - 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3). I ended up with a 2.2. - but businesses tend to now want a 2.1 and above in any subject!

My 2.2 degree in the Bachelor of Arts (Honours) in Information Systems Analysis is aimed at a jack-of-all-trades and covered many other computing a business subjects, really useful, but without obtaining a 2.1 or above almost useless as I'm still unemployed 18 months after graduating.


P.S. Edit your profile, so we can give you better advice, see the blue coloured tab above 'User CP'.

 

Hmmm.... Well, I guess if the goal of certification is just to get past the lowest passing test score then certs aren't really "study" or learning equivalent to school. Oh, wait a minute. I know a lot of people who studied just enough to get by in school too....

In anything I've ever studied I've never looked at the lowest possible passing score and studied just enough to "get by". I have always aimed for perfection. I always wanted to "ace" every test I've ever taken. If I didn't I walked away disappointed in myself.

I have to say though that I do see a lot of people on this site who look to study just enough to pass a test as I constantly see the question asked about what the passing scores are and if scores in the 80% range on practice tests will suffice to get them past the minimum passing score on the real tests. However, those people will do the same thing in an university or college they attend too. They will not limit that behavior to their acquisition of certifications. They will do the same thing at any job they do, or any accredited educational institution they attend too. They will do the minimum it takes to keep the job, get the degree, or pass the certification because their goal is not excellence but getting by with the least amount of effort. These are the people who will study the books, but not do the practical. In other words, mainly they're braindumpers whether or not they use braindump sites. They're the people who never study except to cram the night before the test in school.

My perception of them is that the piece of paper that says "You're an MCSE" or "You now have a BS in C.S." is far more important to them than the knowledge they obtained.

 

Yes I totally agree with that.

Problem is, I've always striven for excellence, but never achieved excellence. Hence to me, knowing my limitations, (I'm crap at exams) the obtaining the pass mark is more important to me.

Simply put;

Obtaining a pass mark = Certification

Certification = Job

Job = Money

Money = Happiness/Prospects/Dreams.

 

Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but certification != job. A piece of paper that says you passed a test will not get you past a technical test adminstered by a company looking at evaluating your skills. The only thing that will get you past a test designed to test your knowledge and skillset is, oddly enough, the knowledge and the skills needed to pass the test.

I spent 3+ years studying, and you know what got me my job? Not my certifications, that's for sure. It was my ability to answer a set of questions designed to show if I actually knew anything about the Linux operating system and how to adminsiter it. If I hadn't had Linux knowledge and skills, in addition to my MS skills I would still be job hunting after more than a year of serious job hunting.

Never, never, never, think that certification = job. It's a very bad fallacy to accept as true. The ability to get, and hold, a job is much more related to real world skills than it is to any piece of paper....

 

I can certainly agree with this from my own experience. It is only recently that I have been going for certs; before then I had no paper qualifications in anything remotely like computing. Yet, except for a short period during a recession about 12 years ago I have been in continuous employment, solely on the basis of demonstrating to prospects that I could do the job.

Harry.

 

Well it is in Scotland

 

O.k. I could be wrong, but the 1.1 - 3.3 was what was described to me 6 years ago, but that's how they calculated the different accumulated modules in a complicated percentage.


Certification = Job

Sorry, disagree, otherwise why do we take exams in the first place, but I do agree with your sentiment that you could explain how you did or do the job, but that's commercial experience - I don't have that, that's what I seek.

I (or you) can't get experience without a job in the subject, doing it at home or for some 'college' is just not the same as hands-on COMMERCIAL experience, which it seems you and a few have.

Yes, I can strip a computer and put it back together, but I can't get a job on just saying that to a prospective employer, I need a stupid bit of paper to prove I can do the flaming thing.

I've had this problem all my life, no bit of paper to do something, even though I know I could pick it up and learn on the job. (I've been tinkering with computers for over 10 years).

If you and others have walked into a job, well bully you, that's why governments in this country have been saying the British disease is lack of education, that's why I took my degree. That's why I'm having to take this certificate, not because I want to, but because I need the bit of paper to get a job.

I really like this forum, I like debate and I like to argue a good point. Your reasoning is very sound, but personally and I stress personally, this is what it's been like for me, however flawed.

 

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, and I am glad you like a good debate, that is what CF is all about

Freddy speaks from a lifetime of experience, like me he is over 50. We may sound sceptical at times, unfortunately that is what life's experiences has taught us.

The trick to landing a job is to persevere, if you give up you will be unemployed for a very long time. You should keep on doing what you are doing. Knowledge is power, knowledge and the ability to apply it, will be the key to your future success.

 

Thanks and noted.

Regards,

Frustrated, skint, unemployed, mature, graduate.

P.S. Sparky, I like your 'Flat Eric' avatar, he looks cute.

 

Seems like everyone has an opinion on this lol

so heres mine....

Im 32 unemployed, have the A+ working towards the Net+. a city and guilds 224 level 3 in electronic servicing, city and guilds 726 IT apps, C&G PAT cert and a timed served electrical apprenticeship with rolls-royce in electrics. I can strip down and rebuild pcs, updte install software and fault find in general. And i've been doin all this on and off fer 15 years.
But i've also spent a lot of time out of work in that period.
Why? well i've found that some employers want a piece of paper that says you can do something over experience and others want the experience over the paper and i seem to keep applying for the wrong job in the wrong way... I got experience when the job wants the paper.. i got the paper when the job wants experience... i get let down on both accounts in different ways.

But i have also managed to get jobs without having whats been specified in the ads... I started a wiring job for a company due to my experience even tho they wanted an electrical qualification. I got it due to sitting a practical test in the interview. I got the job and it was basic stuff but soon went on to be a test engineer for the comapny working on lasers which i knew nothing about.

And now im trying the same for IT. I can do the hardware jobs easy... but when i first started had no certs to prove it... I was always let down in interviews because i dont have networking certs.. Now im doin a networking cert im seeing jobs asking for 3 to 5 years experience but not necersarily any net certs needed.... SO what do i do?? Keep applying for any jobs going in the hope that someone will look at my CV and think." Well lets just take a risk and ask this guy in to discuss what he can do and just maybe he's good".

You'll never satisfy all situations for all companies.. you'll never have the right certs or experience for all jobs goin. BUT at least keep trying because those that are willing to take a chance may just take experience over certs or vice versa once they interview ya.

And just keep trying for certs over time and trying to gain what experience you can in time to cover at least a little of what the average jobs want.


Phew aint i said a lot yet said nowt?? lol.

 

I think you mistake what I was saying. Many people look at certifications as a guarantee to a job. They are not. They also look at getting certified as studying from one exam specific book so they can answer a set of questions on a test. This is a huge mistake.

For a newbie getting certified is about developing skills. It's about understanding the technology that you are studying. It's about building a lab and then implementing all the concepts that you study and doing it enough times so that you can do them in your sleep. No one can do this from using one book per exam. No one can do this without building a lab and practicing what they are studying until they understand what is going on.

You seem to think that I'm somone who has had an easy time getting into IT or that I have years of experience. Nothing could be further from the truth. I just got my first "real" IT job about a month ago. However, I'm in a position in a small company that is the equivalent of Sr. Network and Systems Admin.

How did I get this position as my first job? I spent 3 years working hands-on in my home lab. I built AD domains, DNS and DHCP servers, Samba Servers, Exim mail servers, CUPS servers, integrated my Samba servers into my AD domoins, learned Linux hands-on until I can competently configure one of the distro's that's considered very user unfriendly, taught myself the basics of scripting in a few scripting languages, and more that I can't think of off the top of my head right now.

Now if I had looked at certification as the equivalent of getting a job I would not have a job right now. Why? Because I would have gone about getting certified like most other people. I would have gotten one exam-specific book and studied it until I could pass the test. By doing so I would have failed of coming to an understanding and working knowledge of the the concepts and technologies that underly, support, and make possible the point-and-click tasks that most certifications want a person to know to pass the exam.

What I did was build a library that is now approaching close to 100 books on the all the concepts and technologies that I studied. I made sure that my certifications were not based upon passing an exam, but on understanding what I was doing. I studied TCP/IP untill I understood how it works. I used packet sniffers to intercept traffic between my computers so I could read and understand what happens when computers communicate. I played with DNS and DHCP server settings and would intercept the the traffic from those servers so I could see what they actually did. I built AD domains with OU structures, mulitlevel gpo's, and mulitple sites. I did the equivalent of this for my MCDBA too.

I got a job, after a job search of more than a year that got very discouraging sometimes, because I could demonstrate that I really understood what was happening, and could hold my own in technical interviews with guys who had been in the field for years. Because I could explain the underlying technologies I demontrated that I know far more than how to point and click my way through a task. I demonstrated that I know why the task was done, how to troubleshoot the problems that arise in that area, and how to fix the problem once I identified it.

To me that is what certification is really all about. It's far more than just passing an exam. It's the ability that real certification represents that will get a job, not the piece of paper that says you're certified.

 

I am glad you can still find the time to bash out the odd insightful intellectually stimulating post Freddy - Nice one

 

LOL. I'm gl d you find my odd posts intellectually stimulating, Bluerinse..... Let me know if I can write any other odd posts for you....

 

Dear Ffreeloader,

Thanks for explaining, clears up the comments considerably.