"IT Certs declining in value"

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Yes braindumping is the number one reason for certs losing recognition. My point is on topic, 'Multiple constant re-occurring independant means of verification are required to assess a candidate'. There is no easy quick way to assess a candidate which is what certs promised. They are a very crude assessment of a persons ability to do a job and for certs which are widely braindumped they become of little value to your average employer.

What is even worse is that making the tests harder or requiring re-cert only penalizes honest people and barely effects braindumpers who spend little effort in the process.

I have ten certs, a HND, a Degree, 13-14 years experience and I still had to do a three hour test, several interviews, and provide references to get my current job.

 

Not if you study a braindump and just answer the correct answer. For example, all you have to do is remember, "If I see the Contoso question about DNS problems, answer ipconfig /flushdns". Or worse, "Answer C." No understanding is required. And that's EXACTLY why we have a problem with braindumps!!!

Often, but not always, it will. Sadly, many employers don't give a well thought out technical assessment. They should... but...

Just sayin'.

 

Certs never promised that... training providers might have, but certs themselves have not.

That said, you are correct that employers should use multiple metrics to gauge the worth of a potential employee.

Spot on.

Even if they were to design an exam with some measure of randomness (rotating answers, rotating company names, rotating IP addresses), a braindumper STILL gets the advantage of knowing exactly what to study for. For example, if they know there are three sims covering only topics A, B, and C, they can study those to the exclusion of everything else.

 

I've always had a problem with the value of certs, believing that if you have the skills you don't need certs to reinforce that fact.

The only ones that I have any real regard for are from MCSE upwards because they imply some level of experience of the holder (I believe, so correct me if I'm wrong). It is clear that entry-level certs are starting to offer less and less in terms of guaranteed employment, leaving candidates finding alternative means to prove their worth.

I believe this to be a very good move - who knows, it might even reduce saturation of the IT market only letting the truely able through.

 

Jesus, some of you need to get over your obsession with brain dumps and get a life. Instead of banging on about what every Tom, Dick and Harry is doing, why don’t you just get on with trying to improve yourselves?

In my last job I had to hire a network admin. Based on CV some got called in. The first thing they got was a 30 question technical test covering everything from FSMO to WAN design to ITIL and they got 45mins to finish it.

I didn’t give a toss if any of the applicants used BD’s to get there MCSE’s or if they never did an exam. The tech test sorted all that out for us. Then we could pick from a short list of people that were technically good enough to do the job.

BTW anyone that was doing second level support for more than 3 years got punted from the process.

EVERY IT job should have a technical test of varying degrees of difficulty. I guarantee that if that was the case, paper MCSE’s would become extinct within 2 years.

 

Thanks Grim. The only thing that I could think of was an html anchor tag. MN

 

Zillmere wrote:

BTW anyone that was doing second level support for more than 3 years got punted from the process.


Onoski, replied:
May I ask why the above?

 

Cheating in exams also occurs with academic qualifications. I had the misfortune to be placed into an online project group with someone who was determined to cheat his way through the programming the internet module. To begin with he repeatedly emailed me for help with an elementary assignment to write a program to sort a list; nested "for" loops, the second in reverse. Despite my better intentions I eventually provided him with enough information to write the script. Soon after this he was submitting validation script that iterated through the DOM to return focus to a form control accompanied by an appropriate error message. It was clearly not the author of this script.
After he began to copy my submissions and we fell out to work alone. It all ended with him getting into dispute with the tutor accusing both him and me of unfairness. I even was asked to explain similarities in our work, answer, "It would be similar since it is all mine". I came out with an A but I do not know how the cheat faired. Later I came across him in again in the security module but asked the tutor to keep us apart. The project group that he was placed into submitted work of a very high standard so I believe that he gained a good mark on that occasion though he wasn't much good in the classroom discusions. He works for Nigerian Airlines. If that is the sort of people that they employ I am determined never to fly with them. MN

 

Huh! so lets say if the OP works for another airline would you still refuse to use their service considering he might not be the pilot?. Sounds a bit fishy to me. To be honest there are dishonest, unworthy and ungrateful people in every work of life and hence the greater chance they're working in a company that does not know how they really got their qualification etc.

Obviously they got there through cheating and deception, sad but very true and don't get me wrong just saying the company the OP works for should not be the victim.

Just like every thing in life cheats think they're smart and have got away with their deception but time would catch up and they'd be sourced out.

I have seen and even told deceptive people this but often reply if you're smart enough you wouldn't get caught. But obviously they get caught and the look on their face is

 

It was felt by some that if you spend 4,5 or 6 years at the same level and not really supporting servers, that there must a reason why you have not progressed. Either lack of ambition or lack of talent.

I would be more likely to judge case by case and give people a chance based on potential but I can see the point also.

There are many people I see that are happy to be 2nd level with a bit of 3rd. They get comfortable, money is ok, people are ok, low stress. They know enough to do their jobs. The only problem is if you do that for too long, it makes it hard to make the push into the higher levels like real server or network admin / design / consultancy / project management where the real money is.

 

I see your point, but there are companies that get their second line supports to build, support and implement server infrastructure. Thanks for clearing this up as it can vary from company to company especially with the cutting cost aspect getting a second line to do a third line support role with slightly less money.

 

In my opinion the companies you mention are the smart ones. I begged my last compny to let me use help desk guys on projects to keep them interested, help them learn and promote loyalty to the company. I was told that they were there to support pc's, nothing else. Even if they weren't busy they still couldn't do project work.

Of course all the good guys left and now they have a cabbage patch that is fully stocked.

 

Yes, you are right. I should not have added that to bulk out the argument. However I do not think that cheats necessarily do get caught. Many people have commented on this forum to the effect that those who cheat in obtaining their certs are living on borrowed time before being found out and disgraced. From the experience that I quoted and others it seems to me that cheats are often clever individuals that are basically immoral. They can and often do prosper. As for which airline to fly with I prefer those that fly planes with 4 engines and fewer computers. MN

 

As stated in my initial post it does seem like immoral people prosper, but time has proved that in time they'd get what they truly deserve. Don't let the seemingly long time deceptive people progress clog your judgment.

 

Cheats do prosper, however at the end of the day I know that my Certs and achievements were achieved through ability and dedication to my craft.

It is no coincidence my last 3 contracts kept renewing me, and to that end i think that honesty and a love of IT do show through.

If an employer doesnt have the skills to differentiate between 2 candidates one honest, and one who isnt, then thats more to do with lack of understanding on the part of the interviewer and lack of sales skills from the legitimate interviewee.

 

Wow, so you (your company) was willing to dismiss great talent on a basis that they didn't move beyone 2nd level support? What was defined as 2nd level support. In my company 2nd level support is really 3rd level in most other orgs.

Also, with OT and work arrangements, a lot of our 1st level (most orgs 2nd level) get paid more than 2nd level so there's an incentive to stay. Not to mention see problems first hand; work with the vendors (i.e. Cisco TAC) hand-in-hand; have ample time to study for more certs w/o project work looming the back of their minds.

My point is, there are lots of good reasons to evaluate based on talent and experience (thus case-by-case) opposed to stereotyping someone because they remained in a role for too long. I guess a person flipping roles every 6-months would have been better?

 

Loyalty from any company is rarely rewarded.