Is this just a scam ? Job guarantees / training

Discussion in 'Training & Development' started by Flamehearted, Apr 14, 2005.

  1. NickyYates

    NickyYates Bit Poster

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    The people running the training scams based on so-called "guaranteed" jobs are not exactly criminal masterminds. They have been allowed to get away with this down the years by virtue of the fact that this sector of training has no regulation whatsoever. For example, in the mid 80s some really quite sophisticated consumers were mis-sold pensions. They were sold these on the basis of a claim to the effect that share prices can only rise, and that economic booms never end. When the boom ended, these people were left high and dry. Truth is, they should have known better - they were motivated by greed and they got shafted. However, the result was a national emergency devoted to getting these people their money back. In this sector of training, training providers can make whatever claims they wish, knowing that nothing will result in any effective action. Trust me on this - if you get shafted, you will not get your money back. In IT Training, the government supplies interest free loans via the CDL for the scam merchants to steal. They then cut you adrift. The CDL is part of a wider initiative designed to end "financial exclusion" - which involves a lack of financial acumen, access to independant advice, banking and credit facilities. And if you get shafted by a training provider because you are naive enough to believe that if they rip you off you won't repay the loan? Well... banks do what banks tend to do when people fail to repay loans, and you will be financially excluded for another generation.

    In this sector of training, there is no regulation whatsoever, and this attracts the scam merchants. I understand the position of the operators of this site and their desire not to be subject to accusations of defamation. You are correct to be concerned about this - you are personally liable!! When John Major sued for libel, he didn't sue the magazine that printed the libel, he sued the courier company who delivered it (they had more money). Had he wanted, he could have sued the paper boy who delivered it. However, just to give an example of the way this entire marketplace revolves around deception - there is a company currently boasting four Microsoft Gold Partnerships - including one for the Learning Competency (i.e. training) - whose total turnover since 2003 is around £300,000. That's about the size of a small sweet shop. They claim to pay you to train with them and they guarantee a £25,000 job at the end, and it will all end in tears very shortly.

    In terms of its potential for profit, the claim to be able to "guarantee" jobs at £25,000 ranks alongside a patent on the English language, the recipe for Coca Cola or the code for Microsoft Windows. Inequality is higher than at any time since the feudal era, and TV and magazines constantly ram it down our throats that if you aren't part of the affluent mainstream - you are a LOSER!! It is utterly inconceivable that a company that could genuinely guarantee jobs in this way would not have this fact substantiated by an independant standards body. If some idiot complained to the ASA, they would be swamped with absolutekly unimpeachable evidence on day one of the investigation and it would be the best advertising money could buy - except that it would be free. We NEVER see this, and the reason is that GUARANTEED JOBS DO NOT EXIST!! YOU KNOW THIS - BUT, LIKE EVERY SUCKER TAKEN FOR A RIDE SINCE THE STONE AGE - YOU WANT TO BELIEVE!!!!

    There are a few VERY minor exceptions to this rule. For example, several companies are involved in forces resettlement training. These guys are easy to find jobs for. They tend to be the "can-do" sort, they are technically extremely proficient (you can't call the AA if you break down in the Southern Ocean), they can take orders (one thing employers DON'T want is people doing it their way) and, above all, they are security cleared. This last one is the clincher in the climate we now live in. Without this, you wouldn't even be allowed through the gates of many sites.

    My advice? Self study is a mirage - at least as far as the first certification goes. How many unfinished priojects do you have lying around? The odds of this project being yet another is extremely high. Choose a training provider on the basis of one thing only. How good are the trainers? I don't care if it is in some steel and glass temple in the City or above a bookies in your local high street. If they have good trainers and adequate facilities, they are good enough. The rest is up to you. Providing we're not in a recession, if you have drive, communication skills, know what employers are looking for, can get certified and are willing to take low pay to get into the industry - you will get a job. If it is a recession - don't even bother trying.

    Good luck, but please... don't make the scam merchant's life easy for them.



     
  2. NickyYates

    NickyYates Bit Poster

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    Around 18 months ago, watchdog ran an article on Top Choice Computer Careers (in liquidation). You can get a copy of the article from the BBC. The training provider went bust leaving people without jobs or training. In fact, Watchdog like to present themselves as the cavalry - fighting for justice etc. However, I reported Top Choice to them long before they went bust. What's the point in coming along after they went down?

    Don't imagine anyone is on your side in this. You are alone in deciding whether this is a scam. It isn't difficult to spot. if they have a "test" that everyone passes, guarantee jobs throughout recessions (recessions are real, whereas these promises have nothing to do with reality) it's probably a scam. Do NOT be influenced by accreditations or designations (Institute of IT Training, Microsoft Gold Partner etc). If these companies sell you a £7000 course, that's a lot of money to make the scam appear legit - nice premises, glossy presentation etc. If they can guarantee jobs, had a turnover of around £1.5 million and charge £5000 for the course, allowing them some leeway - they should be able to show you at least 200 people they found jobs for LAST YEAR.

    ..........................................

     
  3. Urban Pauper

    Urban Pauper Bit Poster

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    We should report any training company offering a job guarantee to the ASA (Advertising Standards Authority).
    Here's their link: www.asa.org.uk

    Local trading standards, could be useful too, I reckon.

    James Thornton now charge £8,000 for the MCSE - the maximum it's possible to borrow on a Career Development Loan.

    I had a consultation at their Hammersmith offices a few months ago, but I don't think they're on the level.

    They were running an ad saying that you'd earn up to £1000 pcm during your initial training with them.
    This turns out to be a taxable allowance paid by the DfES for a maximum of two months, but you'll find no mention of an Earn As You Learn scheme on the DFeS website and if you enquire at James Thornton/Student Campus/Microsoft Campus or whatever name they're trading under these days, you won't get a response.

    I was interested in the MCSD, which was a 25 day course, but my advisor tried to steer me towards the longer and more expensive MCSE by trying to convince me that it wasn't worth doing as ALL web design work is outsourced these days... and wouldn't discuss the price of the MCSD.

    They also claim to have a 95% pass rate, have clients clamouring for networking experts and YOU can be the next one in the door if you have the sense to invest in yourself.

    It's interesting that none of their testimonials come from people in employment - they simply praise the training... and there's no real information on their website... have a look and you'll see what I mean.

    http://www.msstudentcampus.com/home.asp

    Their recruitment arm is Vivant Consultants.
    http://www.vivantconsult.co.uk

    I just had a look at their site and the live jobs all have 29th September 2005 as their posting date, so it's probably safe to assume that you'll be waiting in vain for them to find you a job, eh? :dry

    I'd stay clear of them and anyone that quotes salaries in their advertising. :x

    People should also remember that taking out a Career Development Loan of £8000 at 9.9% - 17.9% means mid to late teens by the time it's been repaid... and I'm not even including payment protection insurance! Look before you leap.
     
  4. Indo77

    Indo77 Nibble Poster

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    Hi guys,

    This is my first post. I googled on this topic after I was investigating the apprenta training scheme. Thank goodness I came across this thread. I have spent most of this morning reading it. I agree wholeheartedly with the comments posted in this topic. I have a degree in Web Technology and have great difficulty getting into any sort of IT entry position. I have mostly taken on support work (health) and admin roles within the last two years. I think it is the great big lie of the Labour Government about the values of education. I am sick to death of the amount of IT skills programmes and the nonense populated by firms about the shortage of knowledge and skills, I have three higher education qualifications (all IT) and I can honestly say they have gotten me no where. If I was to advise students it would be that they complete a course which has a sandwich year built in. None of mine did. I would consider myself quite competent in .NET, HTML, CSS, ASP and some PHP. Unfortunately my degree had no proper work placement. It is so true that people think that an IT career is this glamour that it simply isn't and that there is tons of work out there. If I would have went back in time I would have considered doing social work or a teaching degree. Maybe I still can...
     
    Certifications: BSc (Hons) HNC
  5. Urban Pauper

    Urban Pauper Bit Poster

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    The programme's called Inside Out and they're doing a segment on the private IT training companies and how badly they've failed their students... should be interesting..
     
  6. Urban Pauper

    Urban Pauper Bit Poster

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    the James Thornton Group have started using the url microsoftcampus.com again... You've got to rate them for sheer nerve, you know...

    Microsoft instructed them to cease and desist in August, which they did, so I'm wondering why the site is operational again...

    Does anyone have the inside track on this?
     
  7. Bluerinse
    Honorary Member

    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

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    There is lots of info to be found in this thread..

    http://www.certforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=12201&highlight=microsoftcampus.com
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronics - MCSA (W2K) MCSE (W2K)
  8. Urban Pauper

    Urban Pauper Bit Poster

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    Ah, but not an answer to the question I asked, I'm afraid...
     
  9. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    In that case the answer to your question is 'no'.

    Nug was just trying to be a bit more helpful...
     
    Certifications: MCT, MCTS, i-Net+, CIW CI, Prince2, MSP, MCSD
  10. Urban Pauper

    Urban Pauper Bit Poster

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    Very stupid comment, Johnny MX. :rolleyes:

    Thanks for trying, whoever the moderator is on this board, but
    helpful would be directing me to an answer to the question, not to an old thread I spent 30 mins reading through to no avail...
     
  11. Baba O'Riley

    Baba O'Riley Gigabyte Poster

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    That's gratitude for you!:rolleyes:
     
    Certifications: A+, Network+
    WIP: 70-270
  12. simongrahamuk
    Honorary Member

    simongrahamuk Hmmmmmmm?

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    Urban Pauper,

    What exactly is the question that you are asking?

    What I can see is the following: You asked,
    to which JonnyMX replied:
    Unless you asked a secific question it is very difficult for people to provide you with a specific answer.
     
  13. Bluerinse
    Honorary Member

    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

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    Sorry for wasting your time UP, that was not my intention. As I didn't see a post of yours in that thread and as that thread's topic was directly related to the company you were referring to, I gave you a link.

    I did not say, the answer to your question is in that thread.

    Now, I suggest you take a deep breath and relax, as this forum does not appreciate or tolerate personal inflammatory attacks on it's members.

    We always try and help but you have to understand, we are only human, hence we don't always know all the answers or indeed understand all the questions.
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronics - MCSA (W2K) MCSE (W2K)
  14. websta

    websta New Member

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    Im a sucker jus like u did u end up getting ur money back??
     
  15. websta

    websta New Member

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    I'm one of the suckers
    can u send me the e-mail pls tshego<at>hotmail<dot>co<dot>uk
     
  16. H.M.A

    H.M.A New Member

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    hi there can u pass my email on to them as well.
    ahmed4894 [at] aol [dot] com




    Edit Blue: re-wrote email to prevent email spam harvesters
     

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