Is it time to change our thinking - IT Certification

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Ok so I know I'm quoting myself here but there is a good reason. We had our shortlisted candidates in for interview yesterday. One of them had the following list of things to his name :-

Degree in Computer Applications, Diploma in Computer Hardware & Network Engineering, Masters Degree in Computer Science. He also had and MCSA and an MCSE (2003 for both). He's currently studying for a CCNA. He also had a couple of years experience in an IT role, but it didn't seem like it was much above first line.

So very overqualified for his experience level, but we shortlisted him because on paper he looked good. We did have our doubts that if he turned out to be as good as he seemed that he may just use the job as a stepping stone, but that's the chance you take I guess.

Now it's time for the epic facepalm ...

He was by far the worst candidate when it came to the practical test part of the interview. It consisted of 16 questions that they had to answer by working on a virtual XP client and a virtual server 2003 machine. Some of the lowlights consisted of ...

Not knowing how to set a proxy for the XP machine. Not knowing how to add a local printer with a network interface. Not being able to add a printer to the XP machine that was hosted on the server. Looking at me totally blankly when I asked him to remote into the console of the server using MSTSC. Not being able to move a computer account from one OU to another. Not being able to work out why a user couldn't log on (the account was disabled).

We called it a day at that point and I ended the test early. The later questions were more advanced server admin questions that to be fair noone answered on the day, but were in there just incase we got someone who really knew their stuff.

Our IT apprentice incedently did extremely well on the test, albeit not under as much pressure as an interview process.

I found it seriously depressing that someone with an MCSE could be as utterly inept as this guy was. I get the impression from some on CF (mainly new members to be fair) that some of the old hands here give our advice on the best way to do things just for the sake of it. Or to somehow protect our own 'elite status' (not saying I am elite, other than in the game ). But you know what I mean. We give it because it's true!!

To be fair to the guy, he did manage to join a PC to the domain and logon as a local admin .... Maybe I expect too much from an MCSE ...

edit. ps. The guy we did hire just had an A+ and a couple of years experience in a support role. He impressed us a lot.

 

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^ Did you give him any advice?

I wouldn't have been able to stop myself asking how he got those certs if he doesn't know how to do the things you listed.

Then i'd give him a poke in the eye

 

Put it this way, I wrote 'Braindumps?' on my notes during the practical. If he didn't use them, then I fail to see how he could have gained such a high end cert and retained almost zero knowledge during the process.

 

Totally agree mate with your comment that for someone with an MCSE not to be able to do basic tasks is shocking. At the end of the day IT isn't something you can get away with blagging your way through as you tend to get found out quickly then sacked.

What I disagree strongly with others saying is to say to people don't do this until you have this much experience as the real world just doesn't work like that. I think doing certs is more about how you approach them. Someone say doing a MCSE in a 5 day course is asking for trouble but someone doing it over 1-2 years and setting up labs and getting practical experience in my opinion is doing it correctly and will take the information in and be able to apply it to the work place.

At the end of the day a lot of what we do is dictated to by agencies and companies wanting MCSE/CCNA etc. It's our job to be attractive to employers in getting those certs. I genuinely wished everyone was like you Modey in looking at the big picture on someone's CV but that ain't the case. You do what you can to get employed. I'm about to do my Exchange exam not having too much exposure to it. Now going off advice people give I shouldn't be doing it but the fact I've spent months studying and setting up a lab and testing things out and taking it in to me is the right way of doing a cert. If I didn't do this cert then to me I would be doing my career no favors. Lets be honest Exchange is a well known mail system that with 7 years experience I feel I should know but unfortunately never really had the chance so took action myself and closing a gap in my knowledge. After that I'm going to do either Citrix or VMWare over 1 year+. With little experience should I not bother? Of Course I should as I'm learning a subject that is going to make me more employable to companies and pay the bills and give my family the best life possible.

I again agree new people coming into IT should be advised from doing stupid courses but I really think it's inappropriate to say to people that want to learn the correct way don't do it. I agree that people stand out having an MCSE with no commercial experience but I would get around that by put the study length on their CV to say they did it over an acceptable period rather than a 5 day boot camp.

 

I agree with most of what you have said Slype, but there is a big difference between somone such as yourself with professional experience under their belt learning and certifying on something new that they haven't touched ... and someone who is prettly clueless which is the other extreme of the scale. Shame we got the latter wasting our time yesterday.

 

Actually it does work like that, the fact of that was proven with Modey and his dumper of a candidate, just because you have the certifications in no way indicates you have the experience to do the exams!!.

No, it's about being able to pass the exams due to your experience and knowledge, I did my MCITP in 10 days (I actually did 3 MCITPs in those 10 days) and the reason I managed to pull that off is my experience and ability to understand the products, the fact that I build up my own test environments all the time certainly helps but I for one simply couldn't do the MCITP over 1 - 2 years due to family and work commitments, it was easier and more efficient for me to do my course over that short period.

Thats correct and also one of the reasons why if I see certain jobs with unrealistic requirements I often call the agencies up and complain about it, it's also one of the reasons why in 9 / 10 times they simply can't fill the position because either they are paying too little or the people they get simply can't do the job that they want them to do

Being attractive on a CV doesn't mean you can do the job though, again it's about experience, do you know what to do in this situation? How would you handle this or that problem? These are all things that come with experience and not from a book.

And in my opinion you're potentially doing your career more harm by having a cert on your CV that you have no 'Real World' experience of, reading a book and playing in a test lab are far removed from doing the same thing in an Enterprise environment and again this is simply not something that can be taught from the pages of a book or a lab environment

But would you not be even more employable with the experience to back up those certs? Not meaning to be funny but I wouldn't hire someone who can't demonstratively prove their experience of core products on their CV, if you don't have prior experience and exposure on your CV but you do have the certs then I sure as hell wouldn't hire you. Also if you say you have 7 years of experience with Exchange and the exam then people are going to expect that you're a messaging expert and expect that you can fix pretty much anything to do with their broken Exchange environment.

Certs are not there to help people get jobs, they are there to prove your abilities for the products on your CV, they prove to hiring managers that you are the right person for that position.

I really do feel it's time to change the way that hiring managers view certifications, view them as they are meant to be, as proof of experience, not as an entry level cert to learn on the job with.

I again agree new people coming into IT should be advised from doing stupid courses but I really think it's inappropriate to say to people that want to learn the correct way don't do it. I agree that people stand out having an MCSE with no commercial experience but I would get around that by put the study length on their CV to say they did it over an acceptable period rather than a 5 day boot camp.[/QUOTE]

 

The problem with that is its not easily verifiable, 'I worked from this date to this date doing this' will always carry more weight than 'I studied a lot in my free time' because at least your dates of employment can be verified with your employer.

The unfortunate truth is even if you do put in the study time you'll still be trumped by someone with both relevant experience and certs when it comes down to the final decision. Hence, certs should be used to verify relevant experience and that experience needs to be verifiable to give you the best chance possible of getting that dream job.

 

Modey, sorry mate should of pointed out that wasn't a rant at you mate (as I quoted your last post) just a general statement. Yeah there is a difference I suppose with having experience (some people on here would still disagree though). I think things like collage courses that do CCNA's where you get practical hands on are good and should be encouraged as a way into IT. Sometimes it's just not possible to get experience through work so if you want to get on in life you have to take the initiative. I think you get what you deserve if you do something like an MCSE and can't utilise the knowledge from it. I think the best the guy failed would be something he should of flown through blindfolded. The sad thing is he probably brain dumped the exams by the looks of it.

 

I have to agree that i'm thoroughly behind the opinion that if you want to get on in life then you have to get off your backside and take the initiative as far as your continual professional development goes.

In an ideal world everybody could get a job where you start off on the bottom rung and gain experience in your position whilst gaining certs to match that experience.

e.g. you start off on the helpdesk answering the phone, reading the scripts and resetting the passwords etc, you are then taken under the wing of " friendly server guy "who teaches you the mystical ways of Raid, DNS, DHCP and the rest. Before you know it a position has popped up within the server team and having shown enthusiasm and a willingness to learn you get the gig. As part of the companies growth strategy they decide to get rid of their age old mail system and upgrade to Exchange, before you know it your helping out and before long have added the messaging cert as your elective to the MCSA you were working towards... Repeat ad nauseum for each new technology the company implements.
Getting a bit bored now with the Microsoft stuff and realising Cisco guys are much cooler you decide that the networking route may be the way for you to go, and what would you know, the company only has "friendly Cisco guy" who has plenty of time on his hands and is more than happy for a non CCNA to get stuck in with him and lend him a hand.
Having spent many months under the tutalage of "friendly Cisco guy" you gain your CCNA and decide that in order to progress your career you may have to look further afield. As luck would have it there are plenty of vacancies around that match your previous experience and they all require the correct level of certification for the correct job. i.e. no helpdesk jobs that require a degree or MCSE.
Gaining your new job you find yourself in the enviable position ........................you can see where this is going right ?

Back in the real world however, we know this very rarely happens. If you want to get on then what usually happens is that you get your home lab set up, get the books out and get your ass in gear and start learning about the products such as exchange, Cisco, virtualisation etc that you hear about but your company never seems to use. If you don't learn about the stuff yourself, it's a rare day when someone will actually seek you out to train you up on it. You may not be working with the technologies but at least you'll give yourself a fighting chance to get involved when the opportunity arises. I like to think of it as getting ready for the occassion when someone asks what do you know about cisco switches etc..

I think the days of Certs, particularly Microsoft Certs as being seen as proof of your abilities are long gone and only now exist to provide assistance to HR departments and recruitment agencies to help filter C.V's and to pigeon hole techs into easy to define categories. When and if a proper dump proof practical testing regime is introduced then this may change.

Because of this if people want to use certs as a way of gaining knowledge then all power to them at least they are then following a structured study path that will ensure they are covering the right areas. As long as they realise the implications involved when finding yourself on an interview trying to back up any quals gained.

The onus is on the recruiting company to provide a sufficiently rigorous interview process along the lines that Modey had set up to gain the level of employee they require.

 

You pretty much summed it up for me 100%.

 

That is right in a sense that it's hard to verify but I would put it into a covering letter. Lets be honest anyone getting into IT is going to struggle as the market is saturated with people wanted to work in the industry. I personally think that you route out the brain dumpers and crammer's at interview.

 

Unfortunately thats true at the moment, until the cert vendors themselves get serious about the dumpers any hiring manager has to weed them out at interview OR just ignore anyone with certs and no experience on the basis that they are more likely to be dumpers.

In an employers market like the one we have at the moment what do you reckon a lot of hirers are going to opt for?

 

[/QUOTE]

Simon your first few points I agree with mate are it's obvious that the guy Modey interviewed probably brain dumped the exams or crammed them in which is what I said about doing say an MCSE over a short period of time. As for you doing MCITP then thats fine as you have commercial experience. As for people not being able to do the MCSE over 1-2 year period then again obviously I'm not saying give the day job up. If I worked in a different job away from IT and wanted to get into IT I would study say an MCSA in my spare time and in that time apply for IT jobs.

As for me filling in gaps like Exchange then I disagree as I have commercial experience and can apply my experience and knowledge to learning Exchange. I have never really be able to get my hands on Exchange (for example the last job it was looked after in Copenhagen) so the choice is have a gapping hole on my CV or close it which I took the latter. I think employers looking at my CV will see the overall picture of my experience and that I'm willing to get off my backside and learn new things. Opportunities to move into other areas (summed up perfectly by billyr) just in a lot of cases don't happen. So it's a choice between rotting in the area of work I'm in or doing something about it.

I spoke to my brothers mate who is vastly qualified and experienced and he said if he looked at my CV and I worked in 2nd line for 10+ years he would think why is this guy still in the same position for that long. I'm not saying this is the case for everyone but I see his point. If your stuck in a rut then you have to take the initiative and do something about it. My eyes have been opened in the last 3 months showing me just how much my career is going down the tubes as I haven't moved on in my career. If an employer won't progress me then I'll progress myself.

 

and that's what some people seem to have a problem understanding, they think that the only experience that counts is commercial.

There is a very big difference between an MCSE with no experience who braindumped the exams and and MCSE with no commercial experience who has tinkered with the products and knows them inside and out.

If I waited for an employer to get me involved in a technology before I studied it I'd still be in my first ever IT job.

 

Agreed.

 

But it is commercial experience that counts because no matter how well you learn it in a lab environment you will never get the same experience that you get from commercial exposure. Sure I could go and learn about Exchange or Sharepoint because I implemented it at home and learnt enough to not only understand it but also to pass the exam, it certainly wouldn't mean I was an expert in it from an Enterprise point of view because the experiences are totally different.

 

I disagree with this statement.

Lets take Exchange 2007, if you work for the interanl IT Department at company X, you will probably learn more by doing Labs than in the corporate environment.

How often would you be creating new Send & Recieve Connectors or applying domain wide policies for OMA, OWA updating Reciepent Policies or rebuildnig IIS strucutres? Once in a blue moon.

You spend most of your time undertaken basic tasks such as Send As, Mailbox Permissions, New Users etc.

This is where labs/qualifications are important as they show you lots of other things that your work may have never implemented as Dave the IT Manager didn't undertstand it or know about it.

 

...but that one time will be done with real-world users and real-world data in mind. And anyone who has been a tech for a decent amount of time will absolutely confirm that those real-world scenarios end up being different from a simple lab environment where everything works as it should.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't bother with doing labs, because they should. I'm not saying that doing labs isn't useful, because it is. I'm not saying that doing labs won't improve your knowledge and readiness, because it will - so that when something bad DOES happen, you'll be much better prepared to deal with it. What I'm saying is that doing labs doesn't equate to "real-world experience". It would be very misleading to tell an interviewer that you've implemented OWA when all you've done is implemented it in a lab environment with nary a user touching it. That is knowledge... but that is not experience.

 

Fair enough but most of my jobs are about implementing these solutions in the first place, so I do play with the nitty gritty (and whilst I may not be an exchange bod I have actually created new connectors for IIS based applications before). My roles tend to be implement and hand over, rinse and repeat and thats where most of my experiences come from (I tend to train up the staff on the day to day admin of the server, whether thats SCCM, DPM or Windows servers).

 

Bang on the money their Craigie. Most networks are all ready up and running and relatively stable with all the policies etc in place.
As well as this I'm sure a lot of us have been involved with organisations that like to keep their techs to only one particular role i.e backups, active directory etc or someone has assumed the mantle of that position as they have been in a position a long time and refuse to give it up or divulge their knowledge to others. Knowledge is power and all that.
The labs and quals keep you fresh and able to offer ideas and solutions to those more entrenched in their positions without waiting for them to reach for google when they hit a problem. n.b - other search providers are available.