If you have an IT degree, why take certs?

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become an MCSE and then tell me how much effort it takes

 

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Yes, but there is the 'can do love and the 'can't do love'. I just believe that the good degrees are much better at picking out the 'cans' from the 'cannots'.

What ratio, in your experience, have you encountered graduates incaple of doing the job in relation to certified candidates?

 

Your first might get you a foot in the door, a first from a good uni might get your foot in the door at a decent place, but after 5 years out i'd expect to see something extra to go along with it, either a corking reference / portfolio or some specialized vocational certs

That's odd, I don't think I have ever heard that sort of stance out of the mouth of a successful CIO or CTO
you put three years into a degree and think thats it? I don't think so, I can guarantee that most bachelors degrees require far less work than what I have put myself through during my career. and whilst it may indeed secure you employment, it may not secure you appropriate level employment if thats all you are sitting on

and a cert/degree/diploma is pretty interchangeable, the format of the award is rather irrelevant, its the content and prestige associated with it, an MCA or CCIE put in years of their life to accomplish those 'certs' I'm sure they do not do it just to be looked down on by any one who went to school an extra three years..

 

After my degree when I'd never heard of certs, an MCSE guy was pushing me to do an MCSD thinking that I could crack it. After reviewing it I realised that it wasn't valid for the particular goals that I was aiming for.

 

Come on, do you really need a cert to tell you how to do that? A lot of stuff that I have seen in certs could be done with some background reading.

 

I very much agree with this.

Wires a little crossed here. I'm saying that for a quality graduate who is passionate about their job and can do the job should have preference. It's in the best interests of the business.

No, not interchageable. As I've said before the content of a cert differs greatly from that of a degree, and this is for a reason. Secondly, in gaining a string of certs the candidate can pace themselves as they choose. In a degree you don't have that choice (or at least shouldn't).

 

LOL! You got me!

 

you still seem to think that all certs are created equal
this is where your entire argument falls flat

and why is a graduate any more 'best for business' than someone proven to actually know what they are talking about with a cert and some experience? I would take the experience over the degree any day, if you dont think working in IT teaches you 'how to learn' as well as a degree than I would argue you have not worked in IT long enough!


Dont get me wrong I think degrees have a use and a place, but I am more than willing to challenge the attitude that they are the be all and end all

 

No, I'm not saying that all certs are created equal. I'm just saying that given a certified individual and a graduate, I'd be more inclined to have faith in the graduate's abilities for reasons that I've previously mentioned.

The debate isn't about inexperienced grad vs experience with certs, it's about both the grad and the cert being inexperienced. It's my personal belief that good experience takes precedence over inexperienced grads and certs.

Well, the more challenging that jobs get in computing, the more degrees are preferred over certs.

 

If I had to rank them, I'd probably say that those with 'just' degrees came second to those with 'just' A levels, with those with 'just' certs third, and those with 'just' GCSEs last - but that's only my experience. If you're asking, when I'm hiring, would I choose someone with a degree over someone with just certs - then, probably, yes. However, if you're asking what is the most important thing to me then, past the initial interview to weed out the cheats, experience. Therefore it doesn't really matter a stuff to me whether a candidate has a doctorate from Oxford - if there is another candidate with five solid years' worth of experience, I'd choose them every single time.

I once worked with a guy who had a 'masters in IT'. He didn't know what a subnet mask was - let alone what it was used for. As far as I'm concerned, if you can get a 'masters' in IT without knowing that, then the 'masters' is no more valid a certification than a paper MCSE. Sadly, he's still there, having the piss taken out of him by the helpdesk bods - whilst still 'earning' 45k a year in a 'technical project management' role.

And just how do you validate a 'good degree' in IT? I took an HND in computing a few years ago - it was ridiculously easy except for the programming - half of which was, laughably in Turbo Pascal (still the only module I didn't get a Distinction on ). they didn't teach me ANYTHING that I would apply in the real world. NOTHING. No Windows, No Active Directory, nothing beyond the fundamentals of Networking - really, we spent the last year designing ONE database in ACCESS as our 'big project'. Now granted thats only an HND, but I fail to see how someone who will not be given the basic needs for running a business-focussed modern network on their degree course will ever be considered as useful to an employer as someone who has even done half of an MCSE - at least they'll know how to manage AD - rather than be able to tell me what RFC refers to bloody X509 Certificate Management or the history behind Token Ring networking or the role that Bletchley played in deciphering the sodding Enigma code. All fascinating topics I'm sure, but not much use to me when my main DC has gone down and I want someone to be able to seize the FSMO roles from it!

 

Cool. Sound judgement, IMO.

But that's not really a degree thing, as I'm sure that someone on his course must know what subnetting is.

I'm not entirely sure what it is either because I read computer science.

This is a debate that we get into in games regarding game-specific degrees like Games Programming and Games Design. I find it hard to believe that an entire degree's worth of education can be devoted to either games programming or design; likewise for degrees in IT and Networking. In my honest opinion the best grads for 'IT' come from the Computer science, Computing, or Business Information Technology fields due to the breadth of material covered.

*takes cover*

 

Interesting topic, and whilst this is not aimed at anyone's posts in particular, just some of my thoughts:

I have a IT degree from a top 5 university, a small collection of certs , 2 years commercial experience and 4 years volunteer experience....and what have I learned?

1) Not all Bachelor degrees are equal in the UK, like not all universities are equal - but very few employers know that so a first from Uni #150 compared to a third (near lowest degree marking) from Uni #5, the first is seen as someone who studied more/harder, spent less time in the pub etc. and is a better graduate than the person from Uni #5

All degree courses are created and audited within their own University structure and are not audited by anyone externally - there is no way a possible comparison can be made between two degrees at the same university in terms of syllabus; difficulty; likelihood of pass rates; good construction; let alone between 2 universities.

I did a Physics/IT degree - nothing in my degree has been used on a technical front in my job since - if I want to use the theory behind object orientated programming then I could claim as such, but I don't. My particular degree was the first year it was run - it was unbelievably bad - the modules didn't particularly link, there was not enough IT in it and definitely nothing that prepared you for working in any real sector of the IT industry. There were 10 of us on the course, all bar one got a third, the other guy got a 2:2 - this is in no-way a real comparison of my ability, my drive, my mentality and my approach to work.

I have this view also from being an elected student rep for a year following my degree (sabbatical officer - if anyone knows how a students' union works). I've met probably 100s of other students from all across the country and subjects, and all students' unions are aware of this same problem.

2) Certs - I have the A+ and the 70-271 - both of which I've studied for outside of work via the self-study route, I've shown time and time again that using the A+ I've been able to solve problems that my colleagues with over 20 years experience didn't know. Assuming the person didn't use BD, certificates show you can pass a multiple choice exam, as well as you being competant at a particular exams' syllabus - but what it isn't is a well-rounded education in IT - that's where experience comes in - what it is a measure of what you can do compared to a particular syllabus.

Also, employers, either new or old, have a more likely chance of comparing candidates for a job by actually having an exam that is comparable across the world unlike a degree.

3) Experience - following on from the certs, I have learnt principles and ideas at work that were above my current studies, but have been invaluable to actually solve problems, or at least identifing patterns in calls when lots of similar calls come in.

The syllabus' for the courses only teach you what you need for an exam - there are so many nuances that eg. Microsoft have in XP/2k3, there is no way you could examine anyone on everything in that area of IT.

What I have brought from a degree is the ability to do extensive research on a problem and use research methods appropriately, an enthusiasm for learning, a methodical approach to problem solving (which I have not seen from some on this forum to pretty obvious problems even though their profile suggests more certs than I have!) and finally, after being the student rep, ambition, the yearning to know more and what is around the next corner.

==
Degrees - use the skills you gain from them, not the content of the degree and especially not the comparison or grade you actually get because it doesn't mean as much as you think it does!
Certificates - don't bet on making you first break into IT only by gaining certs, use them to progress upwards once you have the experience
Experience - just because someone has experience, it isn't always guaranteed that they know what they're doing.

For work, any 3 of the above will do, all 3 would be great, but I have come across those with experience, degrees and certificates, and in some cases I wouldn't even dream of giving a job to them!

 

I have certs.. and im in my 2nd year of uni.. Ill be honest with you and ill tell you up to now i learnt everything in my self-study to MCSA - thats right.. i havent learnt anything in 3 semesters! Why am i still doing the degree - because it not only gives me IT skills (which i will start learning this semester!! ) but also non IT related skills - like presentations and group work - all vital in the real world. Will i do certs after my degree? Of course! Because degrees are not up to date - and degrees have nothing to do with the real world! Degrees are made up with material our proffessors deemed useful when they studied their degrees - thats how it was put to me!

 

Having studied for both a university degree and three certs I can say I understand many of the points being made in this thread.

First off here is my opinion on certs :-

1) Certs ARE useful - to both employers, and prospective candidates for employment

2) Certs are challenging

3) Studying for a cert requires the candidate to learn and put into practice a considerable amount of knowledge of the most up to date computer technology

4) certs through a training provider or through self-study demonstrate both motivation and initiative, as well as ability

On the down side there is obviously the despicable practice of braindumping - and I cannot understand why anyone would want to stoop to it. But secondly the largely multiple choice format of cert exams is a drawback, since fully written answers would allow a more accurate assessment, and eliminate brain-dumping. Degree exams and 'final year projects' are more challenging in this regard.

What annoys a lot of people regarding degrees is the 'snob value' associated with them. Some people seem to think they are some sort of passport to a good job for life. However since CPD (Continuing Professional Development) is an important part of many professions, not just IT, eg teaching or medicine, this is seldom the case in practice.

I think Mathematix has pursued a successful career and made good use of his degree, but if he was to enter IT Support work he may find certs to be much more useful than they are for software development work. I have worked in software development and I know it is a totally different type of job from IT support.

I would lastly add that in the past I have worked with some very good software engineers who had virtually no formal training at all, and were largely self-taught, and they had very successful careers. But I would also add that I have worked with some outstanding engineers who started out their careers with a degree in a non-IT related subject, such as statistics or physics.

There are no hard and fast rules, each individual is judged on their merits and the combination of skills and knowledge they offer.

 

I agree when I did my HND, there was no windows module, only the basics of networking and programming with ASP and C++, delphi was also taught in the first year. We did do Oracle and SQL in the second year but I wanted to learn about Windows and proper networking.

A degree is only an extra year to up the HND to degree level, unfortunatly I didn't have the money, this is how I have gained extra knowledge from studying the A+ and I also feel when I start the N+ or MCDST (will do both anyway just not sure which order in yet) I will learn more.

I passed all the HND units at merit or distinction apart from programming that was just a pass. Networking and databases and introduction to computer systems were all at distinction.

But did the HND prepare me for a helpdesk role or as an IT tech? no it didn't, it seemed more geared towards project management and database programming

I also agree with Rover, rep given

 

A lot of sense has been conveyed so far with regards to this subject matter regarding the value of a degree and why take on certs. I personally did a higher national diploma in business and finance as well as a HNC in business IT which to be honest taught me about decision making, lateral thinking, communication and team work.

On the other hand I was still without an IT job after the above as most employers and IT recruitment agencies were only interested in the MCP and MCSE cert to get onto a 1st line support and even sometimes a helpdesk role.

This was what prompted me to take on the cert firstly the MCP on NT 4.0 and guess what I started getting more calls from IT recruitment agencies and direct interviews with companies.

I am in no way degrading the value of a degree just that certs and experience in IT would get you the job more than one in ten times. I think most of us on this forum are quite intelligent so lets give due respect to each and everyones hard earned certs or degree if that's the case.

I know a few people with IT degrees and even Msc in IT and still can't get a foot in the IT job market and to be honest some of them worked hard and are very intelligent.

Lastly, at the end of the day it is all geared towards landing a job so that one can pay the bills as well as work a job they enjoy doing. Nuff said