How did you find self study without a training provider??

Discussion in 'Training & Development' started by MrZiGrishenko, Nov 2, 2009.

  1. free-advice

    free-advice Nibble Poster

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    Fair enough BM

    If anyone goes with a TP, they MUST do their research first.

    Speak with the staff, tutors, and if you can VISIT them.

    GiddyG - Yes there does need to be far more regulation. The Government should step in. But I left England because of Labour, so I can see how they would help!!:x

    FA
     
  2. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Not even gonna mention how they can twist the job guarantee... but what if they DO give a "guaranteed job" provided you jump through their hoops? Why regulate that they get rid of it if they're really doing it?

    But let's say that government DOES spend a buncha money and regulate that they can't offer job guarantees. All they'll do is say they'll provide students job placement assistance, and we're back to square 1 with the same problems, aren't we?
     
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  3. GiddyG

    GiddyG Terabyte Poster Gold Member

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    I know BM. Bottom line is that any regulation that comes in must be clearly thought through, and invite the likes of CompTIA, MS, Cisco, and enforce the TPs themselves to take part in the process that will arrive at a proper working policy. It needs to be properly auditable, fines need to be sufficiently stiff to ensure anyone/company will think twice about flouting them. Then, anyone with a complaint can go to the regulator/ombudsman (whatever it's called) to be heard.

    In addition, I'd expect all TPs to sign up to abiding by it, and to putting a percentage of earnings/profits aside, lodged with the regulator, to fund any claims here they are found to be in breach of regulations.
     
  4. dmarsh
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    dmarsh Petabyte Poster

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    If you agree with the stance that advanced certs are only for people in the industry with the required experience then virtually all the TP's are offering courses to those not covered by the certification creators guidelines.

    This means nearly all their business is unethical. Thats before you add in all the other unethical stuff they do.

    If we are going to provide an education program for IT with industry sponsorship then thats what we should do, most of the current certification programs are not designed with this goal in mind.
     
  5. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Is it EVER? :D

    What do CompTIA, MS, and Cisco have to do with it? They can't mandate that TPs do anything because TPs don't HAVE to be officially recognized by the exam vendors.

    But if the "guarantees" and contracts aren't being legally flouted NOW, what's to keep them from doing the same in the future?

    Sorry, GG... your heart's in the right place... but this is behavior that goverment cannot hope to successfully regulate. The only way to put the bad TPs out of business is the same way you put ANY company out of business: by not supporting their business with revenue.
     
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  6. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Certifications aren't "only for people in the industry with the required experience", because there's no "required experience". Although some of the certifications have recommended experience levels, there are no actual requirements for them (with notable exceptions, such as the CISSP). For example, you COULD go out and get the CCIE without any prior experience. Not sure what GOOD it would do you... but you COULD theoretically do it. Still, Cisco doesn't have any recommended experience level for the CCIE, even though you and I both know that it won't do someone without experience any good.

    So... although I believe that it is unethical or, at best, irresponsible to sell higher-level certification courses to people who do not possess enough real-world experience, I don't believe that enforcing experience levels through strict outside regulation is the answer.

    Personally, I don't want an industry-sponsored or industry-regulated education program. All that's going to do is add unnecessary rules and regulations for the "good guys" while increasing costs for everyone.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
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  7. GiddyG

    GiddyG Terabyte Poster Gold Member

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    Nope... but that does not mean that it can't happen. It just needs someone with the right knowledge and in a position of power to allow it to happen.



    Agreed. My point is that by getting those vendors to back such regulation, strengthens it regardless of some fo the TPs not being recognised by them. And those that are should be looking to ensure they do not fall foul of any complaints or audit. One would like to hope that the vendors wouldn't take too kindly to being endorsed by/endorsing or providing benefits to any TP in such a position.


    The power of the regulatory body, backed by Government and the vendors.

    Yes, but while we have people who don't know to look on CF, we're always going to have that ready supply of revenue to the TPs.

    It needs someone with the 'balls' to set up an independent body to take on the complaints, to build a true picture of the naff service, and the false promsies that some people have to contend with. It needs the information to be available in one place for people to view... rather than them going to MS to see what they need for MCSE, or CCNA, or whatever else they need.

    Oh, and to give credit to the TPS that are no doubt doing a half decent job.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
  8. BosonMichael
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    Unfortunately, that hurts a LOT of the good guys who don't have the money or resources or desire to be "officially recognized".

    For example, would you rather study for the CCNA using Cisco's official courseware, or would you rather use a Cisco Press or Sybex book? If the TP is forced to be officially recognized by Cisco, they HAVE to use the official courseware... AND buy full pods of routers and switches. Do you want affordable training, using courseware that YOU want to use? You're not gonna get it going that route.

    I've seen the "Official courseware" for both Microsoft and Cisco... and for both, I'd much rather use Microsoft Press/Cisco Press/Sybex/Syngress/McGraw-Hill.

    The vendors don't have the time, money, or resources to verify each TP. It'd skyrocket the costs of your cert programs whether you use a TP or not.

    Be sure you want it before you ask for it... you just might get what you don't want.

    But... they're not violating contracts NOW! :D

    You must not be understanding what I'm saying.

    In any case, you must have a much more optimistic view of governmental intervention than I do.

    Why?

    You mean... the ones you accidentally propose running out of business?
     
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  9. Sparky
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    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    Going back to the OP for a moment.

    Q) How did you find self study without a training provider??

    A) Not too difficult. :biggrin

    Buy book(s), Lab work, Use decent test questions, book exam. Repeat.
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) MS-900 AZ-900 Security+ Network+ A+
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  10. GiddyG

    GiddyG Terabyte Poster Gold Member

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    Mike, you missed my point. I'm not saying that they have to be recognised. What I am saying is that MS and the like can give a view/advise on standards. But they certainly can bring weight to bear on the TPs that they do give Gold Partner and the like too.



    Again, I am not saying they pay... I'm saying that they advise...



    Come on Mike. I do understand... but just because there is no law/regualtion, does not mean that there cannot be. It just needs weight behind it to make it happen.


    Maybe I do... I have to... I work for Government.


    For the simple reason I just gave... if they don't know about the likes of CF, and they have nowhere else to goto check (such as regulatory body) then how are they to know if TPs R US is a bag of ****?


    I have no desire to see anyone accidentally run out of business Mike. What I do expect is that any regulation brought in will be just and fair, but with the ability to use the full force of whatever legisaltion it has attached to it to deter the TPs who do not adhere to said regulation.

    I did not say it would be easy; it would take time, and committment but I belive that it can be done. As with anything, it has to be 'sold' to the people on high.
     
  11. dmarsh
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    dmarsh Petabyte Poster

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    I want more of the right kind of regulation, or for the existing bodies to care more about the education people receive.

    It seems we have no shortage of voluntary organisations or government bodies :-

    http://www.iitt.org.uk/
    http://www.e-skills.com/
    http://www.skillset.org/
    http://www.lsc.gov.uk/
    http://www.berr.gov.uk/
    http://www.dius.gov.uk/
    http://about.becta.org.uk/
    http://www.traintogain.gov.uk/
    http://www.connexions-direct.com/whichwaynow/ChooseTheRightOptions/YourOptions/LearningPathways/
    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Educati...arning/TrainingAndWorkplaceLearning/index.htm
    http://www.trainingqualitystandard.co.uk/index.php
    http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/
    http://www.nationalskillsacademy.co.uk/
    http://www.niace.org.uk/

    The average person that sees a major TP's ad campaign probably knows nothing about most of the above, so how can they help that person make an informed decision ?

    Yet nobody seems to care that people waste £1000's of their own money on poor training, you can look for lists of approved universities at least !

    None of these departments seem to have anything to stop poorly informed punters wasting their money, perhaps you can't regulate to protect everyone, but it seems a shame that the government complains about a poorly trained workforce while allowing people to waste money on poor training...
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
  12. BosonMichael
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    Why does it matter? I disagree with their view/advice on standards.

    I must say, they've done a bang-up job with respect to braindumpers thus far! :rolleyes: If they can show me how tough they can get against braindumpers, MAYBE I'll have a different viewpoint. Until then... not a chance.

    What'll they do? Withhold partner status? aahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahah! :biggrin oooo! scary! :ohmy ahhahahahahahhahaahhh! :biggrin

    And their advice will come at a manpower cost... which will translate to an actual cost... which will be passed on to you, the certified individual taking the exams.

    Good luck with that. :)

    Good luck with that too. :D

    So you think that someone who ISN'T YET in IT is gonna know about this regulatory body? Come on, G... they don't even know that they don't have to take classes to get certified... they're not gonna have the slightest clue as to whether there's a regulatory body to check with. I wouldn't have.

    Didn't say you did. That's why I said "accidentally". I know that's not your purpose. But that's what would happen.

    That'll be quite a task... cause you haven't sold me yet. Although I'm not an employer, I've got an employer's mindset.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
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  13. GiddyG

    GiddyG Terabyte Poster Gold Member

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    They are one piece of the jigsaw.


    :rolleyes:

    I don't see any TPs hiding it when they've got it. The one I visited yesterday, which allows you to take exams without the course, has it plastered all over the place.



    Not if government scraps payments to the projects/ideas it throws money at now with no apparent view on what they're selling.

    Luck doesn't come into it. It needs b-e-l-i-e-f. And it needs someone with the passion to drive the change forward... someone charismatic enough to bring change about... it happens.



    As I said...

    And so you advertise... on the Net, in the papers, in-between TV programmes... everywhere. BIG BANG. And you carry on advertising, and you make sure any cases brought get into the media, so people hear about what you're doing, and why. You become THE place to come to for advice on training.



    No, if it was me, I would make sure it did not happen.

    :D Could have fooled me. Then again, I don't need to sell you on the idea... I just need to sell it to government, the idea of a body that would tighten up on the whole area of TPs, and stop government throwing hundreds of millions, maybe billions of pounds/dollars away on bit-part schemes that appear to benefit no one but the TP.

    Employer or TP? I could understand why you're so protective of Boson.

    Anyway, it won't happen until someone with the 'balls' to wade into the likes of 10 Downing Street with a brilliant plan does jsut that and gets government backing.
     
  14. soundian

    soundian Gigabyte Poster

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    If TPs had study methods and materials that enabled us to learn 6 times faster everyone would have figured this out and adopted similar methods and materials.
    The length of time it takes someone to pass an exam depends on so many factors: starting ability, study time available, ability to retain facts, determination and even whether they want to just pass the exam or pass well. You can't compare the two methods by simply stating you know a few students who were pretty quick.

    Personally I can't see any advantages to using a TP, except those that offer the occasional workshop. The odd workshop certainly isn't value for money in my opinion.

    My advice to anyone thinking about using a TP would be: Try self-study first.
    If you have to use a TP don't sign up for certs which are beyond your current experience level.
     
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  15. westernkings

    westernkings Gigabyte Poster

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    How long is a piece of string? It is pretty much directly proportional to the amount of time you spend actually revising. I am pretty certain if you spent the best part of a week off work, studying for 12 hours a day, reading through the press books, practising the exams, doing the labs, re reading, doing the nuggets etc, then you could pass quite quite a lot of the exams in a week (Quite a lot meaning any exam, not actually passing more than one exam). Then again, if you study and practice for an hour a week. It would take you much longer.

    Personally, I don't put much effort into it, but I do spend time here and there skimming through for minutes at a time, about 5 mins every hour is spent just skimming through the press books and materials on-line etc. I found out about Self study here on CertForums literally as I was signing the contract for Computeach about to fax it to them. Safe to say, I told them to do one and have never regretted it.
     
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  16. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    I can see how a TP may speed things up if you were poorly motivated to work on your own.
    If your TP phoned you up every week to ask why you hadn't done any work and threaten you with electric shocks or something, you may actually get something done.

    But if you need someone else do do your work for you, then maybe a career in IT isn't for you and you should stick with chasing trollies around a supermarket car park.

    IT is all about thinking on your feet and troubleshooting complex problems. If you need to phone a tutor up to explain DNS to you because you've been unable to find out for yourself, then that sort of thing probably isn't your bag.


    With regards to regulation, it's a difficult thing.
    As has been pointed out there a plenty of voluntary accreditation bodies, as well as the vendor's partner programs etc.

    But generally, they amount to spit.
    The first thing that's wrong with them, is that the TP usually has to pay a fee to be 'regulated'.
    Ho hum.

    Then they fill out a form promising to be good.
    The accrediting body may even visit them, sometimes more than once.
    They see a nice tidy office, lots of helpful staff on the phone, couple of student files, go to lunch with the director and pick up next month's cheque.

    So then, when Barry from Dudley phones them up with an incoherent complaint about the fact that he's not getting something that he thinks he should, not that he's got it in writing, or read his contract, or made any effort to sort things out himself he doesn't seem terribly credible. So the complaint gets fobbed back to the TP.

    Of course, you can argue that TPs are regulated by the sale of goods act and can be investigated by Trading Standards. But that only works if the TP's sales literature is misleading and although it can sometimes be ambiguous, it usually stops short of being a bare-faced lie.

    So it makes me wonder what sort of regulation we're looking for. An ethics committee? That'll be interesting.

    Incidentally, it's interesting to note that recently the wording of the sale of goods act changed very slightly.
    It used to say that statements were not allowed to be false or misleading. Like I say, they rarely were.

    Now it says something along the lines that you can't make statements which, although they may be true, are likely to mislead an average person. So then all of a sudden just about anything that a salesman says can be dragged into question.
     
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  17. kevicho

    kevicho Gigabyte Poster

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    Hi MrZiGrishenko

    Studying IT is like anything in life, it all comes down to desire at the end of the day.
    If you want to achieve certification status badly enough, then that is the mindset you need, this is true whether you self study or go with a training provider, from this mindset you build your motivation and give yourself a reason to succeed, then these distractions will have much less importance than your ultimate goal and you can focus on your study using your reason to succeed (which is now deeply embedded into your subconcious).

    Ultimately in IT there are times when you will have to get a book out, or browse a web forum to find answers, (this is after your own diagnostic skills and previous knowledge and experience have come to nought) so why not work on these necessary skills while studying?

    Im not against training providers, as definately for some people they may work out better, but from the people ive seen doing well in IT, certainly for certs such as MCSE and CCNA, using self study sets a precedent of dedication to self improvement as opposed a psychological reliance on trainers and other people.

    Again thats just from what ive seen.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
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  18. Vips_02

    Vips_02 Bit Poster

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    I completely understand mate its not easy trying to concentrate when you know you are home...a tele in front room..drink in the fridge..games on the laptop.. internet on the side...,..tough job..
    How I cope with this is by setting a time everyday..No Matter what lets say after comeing from work..8-9 pm lets say everyday..I will walk off from my usual TV ,Lounge area...to a secluded room..put on my ear plugs..and just sit down reading..table lamp helps a lot concentrating...with the focus on book and dark everywhere..:o)
    Also you could have a mentor...could be anyone like your wife ,girlfriend..mate...to guide you back in the room ..if found wandering around the house:o)
    and treat yourself after this with a movie..a drink..a Fag (only if you smoke)... :o) or anything you wanna treat ytourself with!!!
    Make a target by booking the exam before hand and schedule accordingly..
    weekend you could put more hours earlymornings or late nights or both..as per your capacity..and Have evenings out to your leisure...
    This way studying wont be stress ful as it looks to be..!!

    Hope it helps
    All the Best!!!
    Cheers
    vip
     
    Certifications: Comptia N+,MCTS Vista,ITIL V3 Foundation
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  19. BosonMichael
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    Employer. I don't have a TP mindset at all, considering I traditionally tell people they don't HAVE to use TPs. Although Boson does have a training center in Tampa, I'd tell those students the same thing I tell people online: you don't NEED to use a TP to get certified. Nor do you find me telling people that you MUST buy a practice exam.

    So... I find your comment to be quite insulting, considering my consistent stance. :dry

    In truth, I'm not defending TPs at all. All I'm saying is that your "plan" is flawed, it won't accomplish what you hope it'll accomplish, and you'll run the good TPs out of business.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
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  20. BosonMichael
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    This is exactly the point I try to get across - probably unsuccessfully. If you need external motivation and lead-by-the-hand assistance to be able to study IT, perhaps IT isn't for you. Thanks, Jonny.

    Yep... and this is one of the factors that will drive away some of the good TPs - the ones that don't gouge the students, charging a reasonable fee for their services.

    Which means that they'll do the same stuff they're doing now - doing just enough to "stay legal". Which is sad, because although they're legally "right", they're not doing what they should be for their students. Regulation's not gonna automagically change that.

    If that's the case, why would you guys need additional legislation? Sounds like you have EVERYTHING you need to go out there and knock these misleading salespeople out of commission.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!

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