Hi, I'm an MCSE Instructor

Discussion in 'New Members Introduction' started by BlueTac, Jan 4, 2008.

  1. BrotherBill

    BrotherBill Byte Poster

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    So the year I have of Financial and Managerial Accounting meant nothing because I wasn't working toward becoming a Certified Accountant? Interesting.
     
  2. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    No I dont mean that, I mean the fact that there is no need in setting up a training school in teaching the MCSE then thats it no exam, sounds a bit daft to me.

    There is no harm in learning something, but learning the amount of stuff there is in the MCSE for no certificate or qualification just sounds mental imo.

    As I and others have said the MCSE is a professional cert not for beginners to IT.
     
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  3. BrotherBill

    BrotherBill Byte Poster

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    Sorry GBL. Misunderstood you.
     
  4. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    no problem :D
     
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  5. Phoenix
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    Phoenix 53656e696f7220 4d6f64

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    Man these sort of threads continue to royally piss me off
    Fueled primarily by people who don't actually have an MCSE, and just pander around repeating what other people say

    Have any of you ever witnessed the competitive nature of entry level IT work in a city like London? when I was working my way up an MCSE was a pre req for 1st line work ffs
    yes, you can get a job as a newbie with an MCSE
    yes an MCSE does have some benefit to you, no matter your experience level, and even without the certs, the knowledge u gain will prove just as valuable
    no its not the be all and end all, like we didn't already know that?

    these threads are getting long in the tooth and I have to say I'm really annoyed at the welcome we give to people who may actually have some experience and skills doing the things you all claim to want to do so much

    I for one welcome you mate, and as someone who did an MCSE as an entry point to a (so far) long and successful career in IT, anything you can do to impart that sort of knowledge on those with little to no experience can only be a good thing (i've met enough of the ones that cant even format floppy disks coz it 'wasn't in the book'), I only hope that you take the content of this thread as an alternate point of view rather than a rather unwarm welcome to what is normally a rather hospitable place


    </rant>
     
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  6. Phoenix
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    Phoenix 53656e696f7220 4d6f64

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    It's not daft at all, it would in fact be nice if people attended advanced courses to actually learn something rather than to pass an exam, maybe then the quality of candidates in the IT field would actually increase and we would weed out a lot of the crapshoots who just pass exam after exam and dont know squat

    This was a question i posted recently in a poll and it shocked me to see that people would consider that sort of training LESS valuable as there was nothing out the end of it
     
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  7. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    I feel I have been Welcoming to BluTac all I am doing is expressing my opinion that I think its a bad idea to teach newbies to IT the MCSE especially if they are not actually gonna get the certificate anyhow.
     
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  8. Rob1234

    Rob1234 Megabyte Poster

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    Excellent comments made, could not agree more:biggrin
     
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  9. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    So because I don't have my MCSE I shouldn't make or express my opinion on the subject then?
     
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  10. tripwire45
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    tripwire45 Zettabyte Poster

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    Actually, I like threads like this. They tend to let people state their position on a subject and why they believe what they do (for good or for ill). It's a great way to test your reasoning process (why you believe a thing) and get plenty of feedback, ideally to either confirm your process or to add corrections. Posting "Hi, I'm an MCSE Instructor" is very unlikely simply to elicit that standard welcome response such as "Hi and welcome to our humble corner of cyberspace". I think the responses have been appropriate given the method of introduction.

    While I cannot possibly deny your experiences Phoenix, I think the responses of the other members are also valid, relative to the "paper MCSE" issue. The initial post did say:
    BlueTac was asking for opinions about what the membership here wanted to see in an MCSE training program (sorry for the U.S. spelling) for beginners. Once you start asking for opinions, you tend to get them...especially here at CF since we are an outspoken bunch. While the thread could potentially degrade into a "flame-fest", is certainly doesn't have to and I think we can all keep our emotions in check while we toss this subject back and forth.

    BlueTac, you probably got a lot more than you were asking for, but I hope some of it has been useful. This thread has certainly gotten a lot more attention than more introductory threads.

    -Trip
     
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  11. Bluerinse
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    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

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    Phoenix.. you did this in NT days i believe, so a lot has changed since then, there are as you know, a wealth of new technologies that have been adopted by Microsoft into their latest server OSs since then. It is my belief that nowadays, it is overkill for a beginner to start learning at MCSE level. Also, you are exceptionally adept and talented when it comes to anything IT related. If the people offering training to newbs for MCSE always had students of 'your calibre', i'm sure that it wouldnt be a problem. In reality, that is rarely the case. :wink:
     
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  12. Sparky
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    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    Interesting thread.

    To be honest I’m not 100% sure where I stand on this, yes having the MCSE on your CV might be off putting to some companies but some will see it as a big plus point. Especially the ones who are Microsoft Partners and want to add to their qualifying partner points. :wink: :biggrin

    At least this chap (hello btw!) is teaching the MCSE properly (no BDs) and is trying to introduce some real life examples to his students, this can only be a good thing. I also like the mention to getting a cheap server and actually replacing disks etc. as I agree that reading about it is no substitute. 8)
     
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  13. Bluerinse
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    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

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    I totally agree.

    Oh and i forgot to say.. Welcome to CF BlueTac any forum handle containing the word Blue, has to be a winner in my book 8)
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronics - MCSA (W2K) MCSE (W2K)
  14. Phoenix
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    Phoenix 53656e696f7220 4d6f64

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    Couldnt agree with you more mate, and whilst the paper MCSE is still a valid issue, its surprisingly less so than it was in the NT4 days, which is good, braindumps were a little less common back then, you really didn't need them anyway, My primary aim was to highlight that this was indeed an introduction thread and that people should not all jump on a bandwagon saying 'you shouldn't do that its bad' when they have very little to go on other than what someone else might of said six months ago,

    They dont annoy me because they encourage debate, they annoy me because they happen every time someone says something that the 'hoarde' here seem to disagree with, and i've seen more than enough valuable members run off due to that kind of mob mentality, and frankly its unacceptable, this guy has been polite, has not pimped anything, not even posted a link, and frankly he has the same sort of angle to training that we should all hope for, yet because he is training newbies we should flame the crap out of him?

    Pete, yes the NT 4 days were different, I know that, but the market in London has changed very little, the bottoms still way over subscribed, and I still get emails for first line roles expecting an MCSE, you really can be that demanding when there are that many fish it would seem :)
     
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  15. BosonMichael
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    But he DOESN'T have the same sort of angle to training that we should all hope for. People without experience don't need to be training on MCSE-level stuff. Companies won't hire them to use it without experience, and that's the point.

    It has in the US, and from what everyone ELSE on here is saying, it has in the UK as well.

    Sorry, Ryan. But I *do* have an MCSE, I *am* in the industry, and companies do *not* hire MCSE's with no experience for server admin jobs. They just don't. And Fergal is spot-on accurate when he says that getting an MCSE to apply for an entry-level job is likely to hurt your chances at an entry-level job.

    I'm not parroting what other people are saying. I'm saying what I see employers do, and what I see happen when someone who is way overcertified tries to get a job.

    YOUR experience might have been different. But, as you said, that was back in the NT4 days. I know those days too; I lived them. It's simply not the same now.

    Get upset at these threads if you want, but each of us is going to state what we believe. We will simply have to disagree.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
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  16. BosonMichael
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    BlueTac, welcome to the forums!

    As you have read, I agree with the majority of people on these forums, and I create certification training products for a living. It doesn't matter how many labs you offer, it doesn't matter how many days training you give them, and it doesn't matter how you structure your course: someone without experience shouldn't be pursuing the MCSE. Being overcertified (with the MCSE and no experience) does them little good (and can actually do harm) when looking for their first IT job. So if that's your niche - to certify people without experience on the MCSE - then unfortunately, you could be doing them a great disservice to their career.

    To stay on the positive side, how about this - start them out with the A+ curriculum and teach them how to get their first part/full time IT job. Then, give them the Network+ and MCDST curricula while they're building experience. AFTER they've built up experience, THEN give them MCSA-level and MCSE-level stuff. Build them up. In this way, you could be MORE successful, and your students will thank you for it.

    I wish you all the best!
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
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  17. Phoenix
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    Phoenix 53656e696f7220 4d6f64

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    They will, and they frequently do, managing a server is not rocket science, and unless your a FTSE250 you can probably live with downtime, only the very best demand the very best, everyone else will settle for a cheaper solution, and most dont know an MCDST from an MCSD anyway



    Really? When I was at the bottom I was competing with hundrends or thousands of other people for a job way beneath me and my level of skill/qualifications.. seems pretty similar now down there if you want to go by the emails I get from new starters and agencies



    Um, yes they do, they always have, they always will, and who said for server admin jobs ffs? like I said earlier, in london an MCSE is often a pre req for a HELP DESK ROLE! often 1st line, in a competitive region this is just how it goes, whilst fergal is correct and it CAN hamper your chances, in other places its a requirement, this is why a resume should be tailered for the role, never just blanket posted to 100 places with little thought


    No, your not parroting, that bit was not meant for you, and I agree, there are a lot of examples/places where an MCSE with no experiance wont land you a job, say.. any job asking for an MCSE for the right reasons, ie someone who CAN and DOES roll out massive AD deployments, manages server and storage farms etc, for the most part an MCSE is not required for those reasons, and if you read my earlier post you will notice I did not say you will get a job that an MCSE should be getting, you will be using it to get an entry level job, thats just how it is in some places where you can be wayyy to choosey

    I dont have a problem with us disagreeing Mike, it happens quite frequently, not an issue, we come from different places, do different jobs and have different experiences, of course were going to disagree!
     
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  18. greenbrucelee
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    Apparently its me parroting BM, I don't have an opinion of my own and am not experienced enough to comment.
     
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  19. Quarky

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    I'm beginning to remember why i stopped posting in this forum.

    Try not to take it so seriously bud, it's just peoples opinions and a way to socialize i guess.

    I do agree with what you said there, but if we didn't say anything or risk repeating, well we'd just stop posting, and if we all did that... (you get the idea.)

    :D
     
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  20. Sparky
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    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    Eh? The amount of crap networks I have inherited over the past few years is beyond a joke. Running a stable network can be easy *if you know what you are doing*. 8)

    Example:

    IT guy from another company phones me as a hard drive has *vanished* from the file server. GBs of data could be lost. I take a look and it turns out that he had a RAID 5 array with three disks, two were 40GB and one was 160GB. Anyone else see where this is going yet?

    He had replaced a 40GB drive in the original RAID 5 array withe the 160GB drive and formatted the extra part of the drive as a single data drive (120GB). This drive went offline and therefore the 120GB drive in Windows completely disappeared and caused everyone to freak out. :biggrin

    Anyways that’s another real life example for the MCSE students out there! :biggrin

    Anyways..

    :offtopic
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
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