Hi, I'm an MCSE Instructor

Discussion in 'New Members Introduction' started by BlueTac, Jan 4, 2008.

  1. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    First of all, welcome to the Forum

    Its not "a camp". Its fact. MS themselves indicate as much:

     
    Certifications: ITIL Foundation; MCTS: Visual Studio Team Foundation Server 2010, Administration
    WIP: None at present
  2. BrotherBill

    BrotherBill Byte Poster

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    Hello BlueTac,

    I think I can understand your reasoning behind the "shortcut" to MCSE. Someone that has accomplished the MCSE will most likely have more opportunities available than someone with simply an A+. And I wouldn't say that it would be impossible to guide someone through your program and possibly point them in the direction of employment. I suppose at that point, you would have provided all that was promised contractually.

    But what about later on? When the subject is expected to perform on the job as they might if they had previous experience. How many of these are going to make the grade and be able to keep their positions? How many will really know what they're doing? Unless you're recruiting nothing less than long time hobbiests, the experience part of the equation weighs heavily.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm a strong advocate for education, but please be careful how big of a step you require your students to take before you push them out the door. Remember that the more of these that fail later on, the more it will reflect upon you as an instructor.

    If you're looking for feedback of how to provide the best services possible, search the forum a few times. You'll find numerous threads addressing the issue of training providers, classes, or programs. You should be able to get plenty of ideas there.

    Good Luck and by the way, Welcome.
     
  3. Becki

    Becki Byte Poster

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    Hi BlueTac, and everyone else

    I am at one of these academies that you train in. the problem i am finding with being here is that i am being bombared with information and taking exams, but i am not getting enough experience:

    fair enough with the network+ quali (which i am doing at the moment) we used virtual pcs, what good is that when a real server goes down and i have to fault find! i wouldnt know where to start!

    i also see your point with a lot of training centres being expensive: i am at a microsoft and prometric tc and i luckily don't have to pay, but upto £250 for A+ 601 is just riduculus!

    yes i would like to go on and study MCSE, but at the moment, me having been trained since sep 07 i would not feel confident as i am struggling with the A+ and Network+, so how can other non trained people be expected to understand all the technical jargon such as the OSI reference model:
    1. application
    2. presentation
    3. session
    4. transport
    5. networking
    6. data-link
    7. physical

    (theres some of my revision done :P)

    i hope this helps you understand of a trainee point of view

    Becki x
     
    Certifications: NVQ IC3 A+ Network+ MCDST MCITP MCTS Vista & 7
  4. Stoney

    Stoney Megabyte Poster

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    I think you have highlighted a valid point there Becki.

    Yes it is possible to train someone to the level of MCSE if you have no IT experience, but how much of the study material is actually absorbed to a point where it can be later applied?

    This is the problem with non-experienced people learning this (and other) professional qualifications, the study tends to be more geared to passing the exams than rather actually providing a true understanding of the subject matter. It is much more beneficial for the candidate if they already have a solid understanding of the technologies in a real-world environment, hence the recommended prerequisites that MS outlines for it's study path on the MCSA/MCSE.
     
    Certifications: 25 + 50 metre front crawl
    WIP: MCSA - Exam 70-270
  5. BlueTac

    BlueTac Bit Poster

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    Hi Becky,

    I really believe in going out of my way as an instructor to give my students the best chance of getting an entry level job as some sort of technician working with Microsoft technologies. Yes, virtual machines are a great learning tool but real servers are another beast altogether. I doubt any training provider will be able to give you hands-on exposure to things like Blade Servers, iScsi SANs and Network Management tools that costs in the 6 figures. But if your instructors should follow our example, then they'd get hold of a cheap compaq server off ebay and run through some "real life" scenarios e.g. failed disks and rebuilding mirrors as this stuff really happens. Reading about the stuff is no substitute for really doing it.

    As for the OSI Network Layer model, what exactly are you having difficulty understanding. Maybe you can start a thread somewhere else and some of us can jump in. You won't have to worry about the intricacies of the OSI model well into your MCSE! Don't let it put you off. If you don't understand it, blame the instructor. Don't be put off by "some" in every class that appear to undersand "everything", nodding is indicative of nothing!



     
    Certifications: MCSE 2003, MCT
    WIP: CCNP
  6. BlueTac

    BlueTac Bit Poster

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    I really wish that students were not obsessed with exams, but that's M$ hype for you. I'd be happy to teach the whole MCSE syllabus with customised aspects without preparing my students for any exams. I mean, I'd love to take bits out of the syllabus which are obsolete.

     
    Certifications: MCSE 2003, MCT
    WIP: CCNP
  7. BlueTac

    BlueTac Bit Poster

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    I'd just like to make a comment about Microsoft marketing its certification/courses. Through aggressive marketing and loads of money, they have converted even the most unwilling *nix shops to Microsoft software. Where there's a greater market share, there'll obviously be more certification/training available. I use Open Source/GNU software for most of my charity clients where possible, but at the same time, most organisations are using MS operating systems and applications. Pray tell me what courses are available for someone wanting to show their competence in Microsoft networking technologies apart from the MCPs etc? I do know people like Learning tree do non-certification courses, but how they compare, I have no idea.
     
    Certifications: MCSE 2003, MCT
    WIP: CCNP
  8. greenbrucelee
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    No one would take a course if it didn't lead to something like a qualification or a certification, what would be the point?
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  9. greenbrucelee
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    good point Becki rep given :thumbleft
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  10. Becki

    Becki Byte Poster

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    woohoo 1st rep :D

    and BlueTac the OSI Reference Model was just some revision lol
     
    Certifications: NVQ IC3 A+ Network+ MCDST MCITP MCTS Vista & 7
  11. tripwire45
    Honorary Member

    tripwire45 Zettabyte Poster

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    People take courses all of the time to maintain and upgrade their knowledge base and skill sets. They don't always have to result in a set of initials after your name.
     
    Certifications: A+ and Network+
  12. greenbrucelee
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    I meant in what BlueTac is wanting to do, I don't see the point in learning the MCSE syllabus but not doing the exams.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  13. Becki

    Becki Byte Poster

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    i think that the point that some of us are making with jumping upto MCSE is like getting a non-driver and teach them in an Artic lorry, it just too complicated, you need to work your way up through the qualifications building on what you have learned!
     
    Certifications: NVQ IC3 A+ Network+ MCDST MCITP MCTS Vista & 7
  14. tripwire45
    Honorary Member

    tripwire45 Zettabyte Poster

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    I see what you're saying, GBL. True, going through the entire MCSE coursework and not taking the exams would seem just a tad strange, though I suppose having the knowledge and skills themselves would still be useful. It just seems to be a bit over-the-top to take a total newbie, run them through the MCSE coursework within a given period of time, and then turn them loose on the world.

    Training providers were doing this about a decade ago, which gave rise to the term "paper-MCSE": a person who was able to pass the exams but who had no real-world experience in actually managing Windows server infrastructures (while in-class labs are very useful, they'll never replace actual work experience). It would seem to make more sense to tailor an educational environment based on first teaching the ground-level foundational material (basic hardware and networking) while at the same time encouraging the student to attain some entry-level job where they can truly "get their hands dirty". From there, the student would begin to develop their own goals as far as which area in IT (there are just tons) they would like to pursue. For example, let's say a particular student's ultimate goal was to become a database administrator or a .NET developer. Going through a cookie-cutter MCSE program would do absolutely nothing for them.
     
    Certifications: A+ and Network+
  15. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    not to mention the fact that you are overqualifying the newbie for entry level positions. A lot of employers will see the MCSE and think that the candidate wont stick around long enough to be viable to the company.
     
    Certifications: ITIL Foundation; MCTS: Visual Studio Team Foundation Server 2010, Administration
    WIP: None at present
  16. hbroomhall

    hbroomhall Petabyte Poster Gold Member

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    Surely the point would be to learn something?

    A few years ago my company booked a group of us onto a telco course. I found it very useful, as I was moving into that field. No cert, but invaluable information well presented.

    Harry.
     
    Certifications: ECDL A+ Network+ i-Net+
    WIP: Server+
  17. BrotherBill

    BrotherBill Byte Poster

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    I agree. Over the years, I've taken several classes on different business related topics simply because of what I might learn. There can be a number of reasons for taking course study.
     
  18. greenbrucelee
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    theres a difference in a course thats to do with your work especially because they are not really intensive and a course that has loads of topics and subjects that will take more than a couple of weeks before you start digesting it all.

    I have been on courses at work where they might be an entire week but nothing that would require the time the MCSE would take.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, Security+, 70-270
    WIP: 70-620 or 70-680?
  19. Bluerinse
    Honorary Member

    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

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    Just to reiterate the salient point.

    Employers (meaning IT managers not dumb recruiters) are not impressed with candidates for entry level positions that hold an MCSE without *real world experience*.

    If an MCSE has real world experience, then they won't be interested in entry level jobs.

    So, what is the point in churning out more *paper MCSEs*. It just further devalues the cert.
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronics - MCSA (W2K) MCSE (W2K)
  20. Quarky

    Quarky Byte Poster

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    Hey guys,

    I've been away for a while but it's my new years res to get back into the swing of things. :biggrin

    I am terrified of becoming a paper MCSE.

    I signed up with Advent a while ago and it was my intention to do the A+ and the MCDST, then look at finding an entry level job. That was the plan anyway..

    It turns out that for me, actually finding a job in itself is much more difficult than any of the exams that i have sat so far.

    I've since passed the 270 and i'm just reading through the 290 before hitting the Transcender etc. The trouble is, i look for jobs every day and hardly anything ever crops up in this area for an entry level with no commercial experience. I must admit that it's very de-motivating and i'm having to dig deep to keep on going, but i do really enjoy it so i keep plugging away for interviews etc.

    I'm 35 and got 2 kids, the clock is ticking (it feels that way anyway) and it breeds frustration. I've been on to Advent with their so called 'Job Guarantee' but it's always the same answer ' we've got your CV, we'll let you know. Since i passed the MCDST, Advent have sent me about 2 jobs through via email and both were MILES away from me, they have nothing at all either as far as i can see.

    It is very difficult without that initial experience and i've learned the value first hand of the difference between experience and certs. A friend of mine is already a Network Admin and he's recently started the MCSE, he's just a little behind where i am right now, but even with his 10 years + of experience he only just scraped the 270 with a 705 or something and he did a Transcender on the 290 and it blew him away, i think he scored 55% or something similar.

    Now i know that his experience is much more valuable than my ability to pass an exam. And that's the key for me. I am going through it right now with the 290. I know after reading the content, that i can pass the exam with some hard study, but in real experience terms it means nothing other than i know how to 'read and revise' and it's kinda it's hard to swallow even though i know its true.

    Like it was mentioned in an earlier post, i'm scared of getting too much on my CV and then not being able to get an entry level job because of that. I guess i could always leave it out !

    I've recently started to take on some web design clients, simply because i'm afraid that i might not ever break through in support and web design might be something to build up. I've actually enjoyed it and part of me wishes that i did a web design course instead, but the other part of me fights it because i do actually genuinely enjoy solving problems. This is what i finished just before New Year : http://www.lariot.co.uk

    Anyway, sorry to go on, it's been a while and it's great to be back, but I'm sure i can moan much better than that..

    Hope everyone had a good Christmas and New year.

    Carl.
     
    Certifications: A+,270,271,272 (MCDST)
    WIP: Master CIW

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