Help! Need advice on the national diploma and A+. Running out of time!

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Hi all,

I need some advice quick! I still haven't decided what to do and I've got till Monday to decide. I am 21 years old and would like to break into the I.T industry. I left school with B's and C's in my GCSE's and only passed half of my GNVQ Int. I.C.T - worth 4 GCSE's ( too interested in girls and rugby back then ) I went to college, studied Law, Psychology and I.T ( A-levels ) and at the end of the first year my parents had to move due to my dad being in the army so I moved with them. I went into work doing mainly call centre work.

I've taught myself web design and get paid for small commercial websites in my spare time but still have a lot to learn. I bought the CIW foundations set with a view to gaining the qualification but don't feel it's worth doing. It feels out of date, unheard of and it seems most employed web designers either have degrees or are self taught. I feel that if I go down that route I'm better off learning via my own syllabus ( which I do anyway with books and DVD's ) and building a portfolio. I'm quite happy with this and do it at leisure anyway but it doesn't feel secure enough for me. I hate the idea of spending such a long time learning something and not having anything at the end of it. I know it would be all about the portfolio and that would be my proof but it all feels a bit too uncertain.

I'm not even sure if it's web design I wanna break into. I find myself really interested in networking and I've bought books on it and find myself being distracted from my web design stuff to read them! I'm always messing about with my ubuntu home server and trying to setup a really good network at home ( just finished kitting out the rooms with hacked xboxes as media extenders - xbmc is quality )

So there I was wanting to get into an I.T role so I enrolled at my college on the National Diploma for I.T Practitioners. The course is worth 3 A-Levels and seems to be the best course I can do at my college. I love the idea of studying in a classroom and I believe I would really enjoy it. The only problem is I'm 21 and the course is 2 years long. Going without full time work for 2 years seems daunting but turning the other way and going back to a crap job seems miserable. The course is a couple of hours class time a day and I think I could manage a living on top of it. I'm a serving Territiorial Army soldier in the signals ( which is very I.T / comms based ) and earn a part time wage from that already. Whatever I do it's a big decision..

I also need to be realistic about the course I do. If I try to break into web design i'll be competing with people who have degrees and I believe my chances are slimmer. Trying to break into a systems support role sounds more doable for me and I'd love to do that sort of role anyway. I've been looking at the A+ aswell as the natural cert for that route. I think i could cope with doing that on my own but the college say they offer it to the 2nd year diploma students anyway so I could do it with them. They say almost everything in the A+ is covered on the Diploma anyway. ( and maybe some of the network stuff to )

The diploma has many mix and match modules so I could tailor the course for networking and web technologies but it all depends on the demands of the students. If I'm stuck with a list of modules I don't like I wont be happy as the course seems a bit 'jack of all trades' anyway. I don't want to do java or any programming as I hate maths. I need to try and shape into a specific qualification in a small area.

Sorry this is so long! Just to summarise here is what choices I have ( feel free to suggest others to )

- go to college, do the diploma, A+, N+ and maybe Linux+. = no full time work for 2 years and im already 21

- study the A+, N+ at home = means I can still work but I don't think I will grasp the subject aswell and seems less enjoyable...but doable

- carry on with web design, keep learning and try to get full time employment in the industry = seems like a big risk and i could end up back where i started

- volunteer for a tour of Iraq with the TA and come back when the recessions over

So there it is... I'm at the crossroads and need some help. College officialy starts on Monday so I've gotta decide quick. I feel I'm running out of time as I'm already 21 and that feels like the biggest drawback of college, but college will leave me best equipped.

Has anyone been in the same situation as me? Am I too old?
Is the National Diploma a credable course?

Sorry it's all over the place. I hope I've gave enough information and I hope I aint bored you! Any help would be really appreciated as I feel stuck and worried about what to do. What I do next week will have a big impact on my life so I need some advice from others before I decide.

Thanks

 

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If you can get an IT job then I'd advise that you do that and also a part time HNC or Foundation Degree.

Entry level certifications are easy to pick up along the way so I'd not necessarilly worry too much about them, fit them in self study or get them included in you college course if you can.

If you can't get an IT job then I'd try and do the most full on IT course you can handle, better to study a condensed full time course for a couple of years than waste an extra few years because you're only getting a couple hours tuition per week.

I'd try and get onto a HNC / Foundation degree style course, you don't really want to spend too much more time at GCSE/A-level. Try and get some credit from your existing courses, can you get your teachers to say you passed so many modules ? Do you think you have what it takes to do some sort of foundation/refresher and then start a HND/Degree ?

Some unis offer courses in the holidays for extra credit. The OU allows you to take as many modules at a time as you like. Other colleges assist with work placements. Research whats available, consider relocating to get the best you can whether its work or study.

The TA seems a great organisation for team building and training, however my views are generally anti war, you could suffer a life changing injury in a war that seems largely motivated by the desire to obtain oil rights in a foreign country.

21 is no age at all, if you make good decisions and work hard you can still have a very promising career !

Best of luck !

 

Hey AuRoR! Firstly welcome to the forums! Instead of breaking apart your original post and offering advice, I'll do it here instead to save space.

Secondly - don't worry about your age! I recently completed a H.N.D in Applied I.T (combined with a CISCO) course and there were people from all walks of life, and more importantly - all ages. The oldest person on the course was 54, so go figure!

From personal experience I really enjoyed my diploma. It taught me a lot of different aspects of I.T I'd never really thought about before - Java, ASP.net, SQL all the way up to XHTML, CSS.

If you're not entirely sure of what you wish to do then my advice would be to get your butt on the course. I worked part-time whilst studying a full-time HND course, and although it was a lot of work the combination of experience and qualifications was the way I wanted to go. Plus, as previously stated the 'jack of all trades' really made me want to focus my skills. You may find you like programming for instance!

A point to take into consideration would be to do the course part-time instead such as the HNC equivalent. (Ken's normally pretty well up on this). You need to weigh up whether you want to do the course full-time or part-time and that's entirely up to you and your current lifestyle (living with parents, low/high monthly costs etc).

When you're applying to jobs I wouldn't overly worry about other candidates with degrees and the like. Yes, it's nice to have a high level qualification - but at the end of the day it's experience and knowing your stuff that's key. A base of CompTIA's A+ and N+ as well as a HNC/HND would be your best bet for a 1st support role. Your past experience on a call centre will stand you in good stead too due to the similar skills you picked up - customer interaction, office suite usage etc.

If you're totally against the HND/HNC course then self-study may be the way to go but its entirely dependant upon your commitment to the cause. I preffered the HND course because I (well, my company) paid for it so I had an incentive to pull my finger out.

At the end of the day we can only offer our personal experience and advise appropriately.

Hope this has helped in some way.

Qs

 

Thanks for the replies!

The advice from both you is really helpful and has lifted my spirits. I really want to go to college but was worried i'm too old and the course is too generalised. Because I'm starting later than average I'm looking for something that will get me into work straight away with the right skills and all the fat cut out. I can't help thinking that doing the A+ for a few months will get me the same job as what the Nat Dip will ( which is 2 years ). But I suppose if I got them both I'd be sorted.. it's just the time. If I turn up on monday i'll finish when I'm 23

dmarsh26 - I assume a HNC is 1 step up from the national diploma and to do it I would need a-level qualifications first + that would be more time. the course is offered part time aswell but that turns a 2 year course into a 4 year course.

I think this is good advice!


Qs - So you have done this course? Is it possible to go straight into work if I gain this, A+ and the N+? I would hope then hope to get full time employment and study a Microsoft cert in my own time. I'm very comitted to the cause to. I've realised that I can do so much more with myself and I'm a lot more mature than last time at I was at college. I'm actually interested in this subject ( A-level psychology is soooo boring ) and I'm willing to sacrifice a lot to get where I wanna be.

Do you guys think I could get an I.T job now? I've only got half of my GNVQ int. but that's still worth 2 gcse's and I've done nearly a full as level in I.T but didn't take the exam ( even though i couldnt do anything about it i wont tell an interviewer that! ). I've got proof of numerous commercial websites I've built aswell, with a portfolio and I've studied loads over the last 6 months. I suppose the ideal option would be to get a role in I.T and self study the A+ and N+ but I haven't actually applied for any I.T positions.

I've quit work so I'm gonna look for full time work or part time if i go to college. How long do you think the A+ could take if I worked on it non stop while I'm being a bum? I could then apply for I.T jobs with the cert maybe.

the only real reason i don't wanna go back to college is supporting myself. i've moved back to my parents as i split up with the missus and they would support me all the way but i don't wanna be here in 2 years time. the questions is can i support myself and have a roof over my head while studying full time?

thanks for the friendly advice guys this forum is better than any careers advisor.

the job centre should have a sign up outside saying 'go to certforums.co.uk for any jobs advice. come here to be a benefit bum.' because they are useless!

don't bet your money on it lol

cheers guys, i'm gonna be on here all tonight while i research my options some more. i've got a meeting with the head of the subject at college tommorow. i'm gonna go and interrogate him about the course etc. and start on Monday! I will definately start it and give myself a month to decide if i wanna carry on.

looks like you guys will hear a lot of me over the coming month!

 

Not necessarilly, get together all your quals, get references from your previous colleges and tutors and go and speak to the admissions people at various colleges, the admissions process is not a fixed process, you can negotiate, its your education, your time, your government education funding, they want you to fit into their standard programs but mature students often enter courses through non standard routes.

Theres no reason you can't work part time while in full time study or vice versa.

Nobody likes it, everyone wants to have everything straight away, however building a sucessfull IT career will take many sacrifices. Its more common than ever for people to be living with their parents into their thirties.

I've always found the people at the job centre to be the last person you should ask about jobs !

Like I said, don't over value certs, a full time course or job will always look better on a CV. Sure start the A+ immediately if you like, and study it every spare minute, doing this to the detriment of job hunting or a formal course is a huge risk however.

The advantage of certs is that they can be fitted around your other activities. Sitting at home studying alone for 12+ hours a day takes tremendous deadication, and probably has negative psychological effects. There are many other positive aspects to work or college study like socialising, learning from peers, etc. You will learn faster in the right environment, surrounded by people to motivate and help you, and provide new situations and challenges. Its very hard to stay motivated when self study is ALL you do and nothing else, and you have nothing to provide a context to what you are learning.

 

Seems like very sound advice once again!

Well if it is possible to live on your own and study full time then I will do it. I'm not going to college to make friends, I'm going to soak up as much knowlegde as possible and get distinction grades and any certs I can squeeze around it. If I wanted to meet people and go out and get drunk I would go back to my old job. I'm gonna have to get rid of my car and everything but I'm not bothered.

I'm gonna be doing something that I find enjoyable so I guess I should go for it.

There's also this course at my college - advanced systems and application support which seems like a more condensed course ( 1 year ) and geared towards a support role. this may be better for me as i wont be learning stuff like C and java which i know i will never use. this combined with the A+N+ all done within a year sounds like another option. what do you think?

here is the exact qualification OCR Certificate for IT Professionals (ICT Systems Support) (iPRO)Level 3

 

Get as much advice as you can, I'm not a professional careers or education advisor so I can only give you my opinion.

The OCR courses are also available part time as far as I'm aware, they don't seem to be radically different to various BTEC GNVQ stuff. Except they often include certs as part of their content. I'd only do these full time if they are going to lead onto a higher qualification, otherwise get a job and do them part time.

If you are going to study full time you really need to end up with a fairly major qualification that employers will recognize, to me only HNDs, Foundation degrees and Degrees really do that.

NVQF

If you look at the framework OCR is levels 1-3, HND and Degrees are 5 and 6.

You really want to arrange an educational path that leads to a higher qualification, you may be able to do a HND direct or you may need to do a one year interim course or foundation year, you need to get this all arranged with a college so that you have a plan of action and providing you hold your end up you know where you are going.

Student shared accomodation and expenses can still be relatively cheap even living away from home, and with part time work not going into major debt should be achieveable. You probably won't be able to afford a car unless your part time job justifies it.

Higher qualifications will allow you to chose various modules, being exposed to various different stuff might be a good idea, how do you know you won't enjoy or use Java or C ?

Consider colleges around the country, studying close to home is usually cheaper, but if the college does not offer the right course it could be a big mistake. Without top grades you won't get into the top universities but there are many colleges around the country eager for students, every year there is a clearing process for A-level students for example where people hagle for places. Mature students often use work experience to get onto courses in lieu of qualifications etc.

Southampton Solent University

This is where I did my HND, they do a 3 year degree full time, with foundation year makes 4 years. They even have a flexible learning option.

Portsmouth University
Reading University

You have to sort it NOW as classes normally start end of september, otherwise you will lose another academic year !

Best of luck !

 

I started college at age 23 after being in the Army... and I didn't get my first "real" IT job till I was 28. So you're young, yet.

Additionally, my degree wasn't in IT... it was in Chemistry. And I have yet to find an employer who didn't value my degree to some... er... degree. It's never hurt me any; to the contrary, it's definitely helped me get where I am today.

The only thing that'll get you into work straight away is getting into work straight away. A degree isn't required for entry-level IT jobs, and experience - not just a degree - is required for advanced IT jobs. So my advice is this: work in an entry-level IT job while going to school for your degree. That way, you're building up the experience that ALL IT employers desire, while earning a degree that will come in handy later in your career.

You are wise - I would agree with your assessment. That said, you can do both, AND start building IT experience!

It's possible to go straight into work with no certifications, no degrees, and no experience. That said, competition for entry-level IT jobs is rough. Getting your first IT job is the hardest thing you'll likely do in IT. Entry-level certifications such as the A+, Network+, and MCDST can go a long way towards setting yourself apart from your competition. That said, they aren't a guarantee.

As explained earlier - why not?

You will probably want to decide whether you want to be a tech or a Web designer. Occasionally you'll find a tech who does Web design on the side, but the fields don't really cross very much. So the A+ and Network+ won't be as useful to you as a Web designer, and your e-portfolio won't be very useful to you as an IT tech.

It's different for everyone. I would be doing you a disservice if I told you how long you SHOULD take. For instance, if I said that you should get it done in 2 months, and you took less time than that, you'd likely feel unprepared... or, on the flip side, if you weren't ready in 2 months, you'd likely feel unnecessarily stressed to get it done quicker because "it shoulda been done by now". Some people walk into the tests cold... others take more than a year to study - literally. So my advice is to study until you completely understand the concepts... then take the exam. Study as much or as little as YOU need to.

I did - for four years... full time job, full time school. Granted, it wasn't easy... I had MANY days where I went to school for several hours, worked for 8 hours, and pulled an all-nighter doing homework or studying for an exam (or two!). You sacrifice a lot of the "other stuff". But if you put forth the effort, it's ab-so-lutely worth it in the end. Live like no one else so you can ultimately live like no one else.

Glad to have you in the forums! If our advice works for you, show your appreciation by paying it forward: stick around and give others the same advice you've been given.

 

Thanks for the sound advice mate. Very inspiring to, I feel I have the same dedication. There is another course which is 1 year long which sounds more appealing to me. hereI'm hoping it's the same as the diploma but with all the fat cut out. Combining this academic qualification with some certs will hopefully make me I.T employable. Thats the thing with the diploma course BosonMichael, I would be studying networking, web design, java, C+ VB etc. So I'm now enquiring about this systems support course. Have you heard of it? Are you in the UK? If you're not you probably haven't.

What did you do in the army? I noticed that you mentioned in a post you made saying you've done Signals EW. I'm a signals reserve and I'm training to be an area systems operator, which is maintaining theatre wide networks and radio comms. This is where I realised I was interested in networking.
My brother is just about to be medically discharged from the signals (motorbike accident - hes ok just hobbles a bit now ) and they giving him 4 grand to spend on courses within the next year. He's got a list of courses he can do which has A+ and CCNA anongst many others. He wants to do the A+ with them but I say he's better off doing that at home and spending the classroom training on more advanced courses. He may not even use them though as he's been noticed by serco ( a big military contractor ) and he may have a job working on skynet and doing EW stuff. He doesn't think he'll get it tho.

It would be useful if anyone has knowledge of the 1 year course mentioned above. This post mentions that the modules carry over to the A+ which would be useful as i intend to the A+.

Anyways thanks a lot for all the help so far. I will find out as much at the college tommorow and come back here for more advice. I will definitely try to relay any knowledge to other people on here if it can help. These sort of communities wouldn't work if noone contributed so ill try and help out without ruining anyones career prospects!

Cheers

 

Well, I'm not sure what the course's point is of studying such dissimilar fields when those jobs don't overlap in the real world very much.

I admit, I am fairly ignorant of qualifications in the UK. Here in the US, if it's not a degree, employers don't care much about what courses you've taken. Thus, I'm not sure about how useful a year-long course related to dissimilar technologies and skills will be to you.

Yep, I was a signals intelligence analyst/linguist (Mandarin). We didn't maintain radio comms; we tracked and deciphered the radio comms of enemy forces. We then combined that with other forms of intelligence to come up with a detailed analysis of the overall situation.

That said, that was almost 20 years ago... technology has vastly improved since then.

 

My course was a HND (Higher National Diploma) in 'Applied I.T'. Link to a PDF of the course is here if you're interested. Personally... I felt that some of the core modules didn't need to be there (they didn't have any purpose for what I wanted to do - e.g. creating PACMAN in java *sigh*). Also some modules were just ridiculously easy (in the maths module for instance, I already had A-Level Physics and Maths and therefore didn't go to any lectures and nailed the exam straight off - not that I'm advising you to do this! ) but it's all down to you and your skills. I must say I did enjoy quite a few of the modules and it totally put me off certain aspects of IT (fully commented java code is the devil's work) which helped me focus my aims.

I got my job in I.T before even starting the HND and all I had to my name were high-school qualifications - I had to show I could do the job through self-taught experience. So yeah, you can.

I'd look into doing what both BM and DMarsh suggest though. I know I was lucky to get my 1st line job with no prior experience but getting the A+ and the N+ (for example) will build a good base for your CV - combine that with experience and you have a much better chance at getting your first IT job.

As for what was suggested about full-time study and part-time work - I also did it like this (I'm sure I said this in my original post but hey) and it paid off. Experience + Qualifications = The way forward.

Hope this helps.

Qs

 

Theres just one thing I missed, vocational courses are great, but there is little point paying to learn stuff full time that people are prepared to teach you on the job.

So when I see modules titled 'Installing Software' etc alarm bells go off, most courses have some unecessary modules, but if your studying full time you want to make sure you have a balance of academic/theoretical and vocational study.

Introductory programming for instance even though maybe vocational is required as you generally won't be allowed to learn on the job.

'Customer Support Provision ', 'Software Installation', 'Repair Centre Procedure' all seem like things you could learn on the job at the right place.

 

Well I went to the college today to complete the formalities and I was pleased with it. It seems I'm not the oldest there and the lecturers said the same thing as you guys on here.

I asked to see the modules and course objectives but they said I'll get them on Wednesday, that's my first official day of the course.

I could still transfer to the other course I mentioned which would be more convenient ( only 1 year ) but I'm gonna ask about it on Wednesday. I thought that qualification would give me a solid understanding of general support roles and combined with certs would set me up. So you disagree with that BosonMichael?

Here is the one I'm enrolled on which is 2 years long. These are level 3 qualifications by the way, one up from school, one down from foundation / bachelors. You have to have a level 3 qualification to get on a degree which I don't have. Is it the same in the states?

Is there anyone that can comment on this course? A year sounds so much better than 2 considering expenses.. Although it seems I may be entitled to 30 quid a week, 2.50 a day for travel and a grant for other expenses. I can also work part time ( I got my timetable today and it has all been condensed into 3 days instead of spread over 4 / 5 ) and not lose any of it, sounds pretty good!

 

You don't need ANY course or degree to get into IT. You can get one... and you might learn a lot... but it's not required... and it's not gonna "set you up". Moreover, unless it's a degree program, employers aren't gonna care much. At least, that's how it is in the US; someone in the UK might need to set me straight on that one.

Again, if you decide to go to a course, get an IT job NOW, while you're in school. Real-world experience is what employers want... so start building that experience now... not a year or two or four from now, when you're done with school.

It's nowhere near that convoluted in the US. You've either got a diploma from high school, an Associates degree (2 years), a Bachelors degree (4 years), a Masters degree (Bachelors + extra), or a Doctorate degree (Bachelors + a lot extra). That's it - no qualifications of any sort. You either get into college, or you don't.

There are courses and "certificate programs" that you can take... but to be honest, employers don't really care much about them; anyone can take a single course or program and pass...

 

Nearly all job applications I've looked at over the past six months which have requested degrees have specified it as:-

"HND / Degree"

So I'm assuming that employers see both courses at pretty much the same. In layman's terms the HND is effectively 2/3rds of a degree anyway so *shrugs*

 

They required degrees, or simply preferred those who have them? Makes no sense to require a degree for entry-level or desktop admin positions...

 

I saw instances of both, but in all honesty a large proportion of the adverts were "preferred". Regardless they categorized both qualifications together which is odd.

 

Wouldn't you prefer a degreed candidate, given a choice? I would. That's why it's listed there. They don't care what you've got... but if you've got one, it can give you an advantage over your competition, provided experience levels are equal. Experience almost always trumps a degree. Thus, you don't have to have a degree for most IT jobs.

 

Agreed. If I were an employer - I'd be in the same boat as you and advertise to get candidates with a higher level of qualification over a lesser one.

But hey, just sayin' what I see.

 

Not really, as BM says many jobs don't require that much training or experience, I bet most of us could do 80% of the jobs out there adequately with a years apprenticeship or work shadowing.

The trouble is you often aren't going to get that chance, employers generally don't like to train, they want fully trained or at least part trained people.

The numbers of applicants for entry level or semi skilled jobs with training are normally huge, its pretty common for them to request a higher qualification just to narrow the numbers and prove basic apptitude and commitment.