Hang in there!

Discussion in 'New Members Introduction' started by moisea, Feb 15, 2010.

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  1. danielno8

    danielno8 Gigabyte Poster

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    yes that is called listening (already said i do listen), it doesn't mean you ARE going to change your mind.

    /the end
     
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  2. Bluerinse
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    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

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    I wouldn't either. employers hate gaps and most like to employ smart people.

    Oh and i am older, and wiser than BM (55) and run my own IT business and have interviewed more people than i can remember over the last.. 22 years, when i first got into management.

    But what do i know?

    edit.. when all else fails, try something different. even if it makes no sense.
     
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  3. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Well... older, anyway. :twisted:

    Just kidding, my friend. :) Employers do hate gaps... and I can't fix that part of his CV. Was simply mentioning that a degree isn't a positive to some entry-level employers, and it might help. And it might not. But, as we both have said:

    Yep, this was my point. :)
     
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  4. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    The difference is, you really didn't reconsider your viewpoint. You stubbornly dug in your heels and didn't give it a fair shake. Don't say you did, mate... your attitude stuck out like a sore thumb, as it usually does when I disagree with you.

    Don't really know why you have a problem with me, but it is obvious that you have one. Had it been anyone else who disagreed with you, I doubt you would have acted as you did. You simply wanted to "win" the argument.
     
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  5. danielno8

    danielno8 Gigabyte Poster

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    You see you didn't just say this in the beginning. You instantly quoted me saying:

    which to me is alot different to:


    As i have said before, the fact that i disagree with you on things, you shouldn't take it to heart. I know i am younger than you, but this does not mean i am doing it just BECAUSE you are older. I don't get what you think you mean to me for me to actually care to seek out arguments with you. For the record, you disagreed with me first in here :P

    And i didn't want to "win" the argument. Merely wanted to get my opinion on the situation and my experiences and how i would do it.

    /theend perhaps?
     
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  6. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    No... you're doing it because you don't like the fact that I act like I know what I'm talking about. You mistakenly interpret it as being condescending or arrogant.

    The point isn't who disagreed with whom first... the point is that when I disagreed, you immediately discounted it despite my greater experience in this particular arena... and afterwards, you chose to lash out and scoff at my experience. THAT is where the problem occurred, Daniel... not in the disagreeing, but in how you handled it.

    And with THIS, you can choose to listen to what I am (and others are!) telling you with regards to handling disagreement, or you can also immediately disregard it as well. If you choose to listen to me, I promise you, it will strengthen your future arguments.

    Over time, perhaps you'll realize that I'm trying to help. :)
     
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  7. danielno8

    danielno8 Gigabyte Poster

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    I'll say it again since you didn't believe me before, i say my opinion because i want to. It's my opinion he shouldn't leave a 4 year gap on his CV. It has nothing to do with what side of the argument you are on, proved by the fact i had already given my opinion before you joined the discussion.

    Right, so because you gave your opinion, i didn't agree, you decide that i was just immediately discounting it?

    Whether i am right or wrong to disagree with you, you cannot justify saying i am weakening myself simply by disagreeing with you!

    So this is about my skills in handling disagreement now?
     
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  8. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    I understand that you have the opinion you have. I understand that you had that opinion before I said anything. What I said is that the way you handled yourself AFTER I posted is because you don't like me or the way I confidently state my point.

    And then by the time others gave an opinion similar to mine, you were entrenched in your argument, so you dug in your heels stubbornly, despite multiple experienced people disagreeing with you.

    My point is this - had *I* not disagreed with you in the first place, you probably would have never responded as you did, because you seriously have a problem with me.

    Your actions betray your motive.

    You don't weaken yourself simply because you disagree with me. You weaken yourself when you lash out and attack in an illogical manner, such as focusing ONLY on the fact that I've worked with computers since I was 10 (before you respond, note that this is just ONE example).

    Yes, and how you decide to handle THIS disagreement will indicate whether you desire to take the first step towards improving your ability to debate your viewpoint in a logical fashion.

    I don't think you'll do it, Daniel. Please, prove me wrong. :)
     
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  9. OnFire

    OnFire Nibble Poster

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    I couldn't help but read every word this thread/heated debate :)

    Just to add my 2c to the OP having been on both sides of the table too.

    At best, having a degree on your CV for an entry level position will not give you an advantage other anyone else, but at the same time a four year gap would be questionable and therefore I would leave your degree on.

    I think a good cover letter would help here to explain your passion for IT lead you to pursue your degree and now you are wanting to take the next step and built up your experience right from the bottom.

    I have never not interviewed someone on the basis of having a degree, but everytime I do it usually goes like this:

    Me: Tell me about yourself?
    It: I have an IT degree, how much are you going to pay me?
    Me: You will be paid the advertised rate, IF you are employed.
    It: IF? I have a degree, I should be sat where your sat.
    Me: We will be in touch.

    I have started to make it clear now in the interview that the salary is what it is (It ain't too bad here actually), you will be unlikely to get promoted within 2 years however you will learn a lot if your willing. The ones that are still interested, none graduates so far get the job and are usually promoted within 6 months. I'm not sure what happens to all of the graduates that we never hear back from, but I do have a story about one:

    We had a call from a company requiring support since there network was acting up. They employed an IT consultant fresh from college 6 months ago and he quit to take a job else where (Without notice). We surveyed the two sites and their infrastructure and found:

    Site 1: Single server (DC) called "Server" hosting a domain called "Domain"
    Site 2: Another single server (DC) called "Server" hosting ANOTHER domain called "Domain"

    Everything was added to the domains twice to match the other, users, passwords (which expired at different intervals) etc. It was a total mess but it was also the one of the most interesting days I have had in IT :)

    Not sure if this was any help at all, I just started typing and got carried away.
     
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  10. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Props! :) It's hard to not read the drama, innit? :D

    This is quite true. So the question is this: how could the OP leave the degree off his resume AND not show a 4-year gap? Obviously, what's done is done... so might the gap be filled by saying that you went to school for four years, but not list the degree?

    Sure, an employer might think, "Wow, this dude went to school for four years and doesn't have a degree to show for it." But that could be asked at the interview table... and at that point, the OP could reveal that he has a degree but did not want to look overqualified (NOTE: not BE overqualified, LOOK overqualified) for the position. Then the employer can decide what he/she will... but at least, the OP got an interview and had a chance to state his case for being the best employee for the job. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2010
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  11. OnFire

    OnFire Nibble Poster

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    True......I could see this working......BUT

    If I was read the resume that listed 4 years of college with no details of the degree....I was assume one or more of the following:

    a) Drop out
    b) Intellectually challenged (Or the short version)
    c) He studied drama and is embarressed
    d) He forgot to include it on the resume (See B above)

    Any chance the OP could post his CV so we can just make sure there is not an underlying problem with the lack of responses?

    P.S HHmmm that quote thing didn't go so well.
     
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  12. JK2447
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    JK2447 Petabyte Poster Administrator Premium Member

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    Hi OnFire,
    I think you've touched on a good point there. A persons Covering Letter is very important IMHO as it allows you elaborate on something mentioned in your CV, in a less formal manner, and showcase your writing skills.
    Perhaps the person who started this thread needs to redo their CV and covering letter. Post them on here minus personal details if you like? Everyone else does :D
    Jim
     
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  13. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Or... he isn't finished with the degree yet. It could happen. :)

    That said, you are quite correct about the other possible assumptions.
     
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  14. Asterix

    Asterix Megabyte Poster

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    Answer the following Q:
    -4 years of full time college + he isn't finished with the degree yet = XXXXXXXXXX

    a) Drop out
    b) Intellectually challenged (Or the short version)
    c) He studied drama and is embarressed
    d) He forgot to include it on the resume (See B above)


    P.S. Answer would be B!:p
    P.S.S. My Degree has never hurt my career! progressed between three different helpdesks in a year (5K payrise on each job change) and have just been promoted to Desktop support within the same company (+3.5K) :D
     
  15. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Perhaps that's the case in the UK. Here in the US, it is not uncommon for people to take longer to finish a degree, particularly if they work or change majors midstream.
     
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  16. SimonD
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    SimonD Terabyte Poster

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    Or as I keep saying, if he actually did part time work during those 4 years it's that that goes onto the CV.
    Obviously if he didn't then he is a bit buggered but..... well it's not getting him a job yet.
     
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  17. JK2447
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    JK2447 Petabyte Poster Administrator Premium Member

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    It seems like another world to when I got into IT 10 1/2 years ago. Perhaps I'm wearing rose tinted glasses but it seems easier back then don't you think? I didn't have a cert to my name either
     
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  18. SimonD
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    SimonD Terabyte Poster

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    I had the CNA when I first started, this was back in 1997, I would definitely say it's harder now tho, there are more computer savvy people out there and that's why it's harder to get work, because there are more people looking for those jobs.
     
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  19. danielno8

    danielno8 Gigabyte Poster

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    I was not entrenched in my argument for any other reason that it's what i believe to be the best option for the OP. end of. There's plenty people already responded saying they would leave it on, so are you also just digging your heels, or perhaps, you still believe it to be the best option?


    The reason i picked that out, is because you picked it out as the reason one of your experience arguments. Whereas i personally believe that the fact you played with computers age 10 to be irrelevant to this discussion. THAT was why i brought it up.


    I'm have no desire to improve my forum arguing skills. Your's are clearly honed however, wonder why.
     
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  20. DapperDan

    DapperDan Nibble Poster

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    Same here. Went straight into IT from leaving uni with a computing degree in 2000 with no cert to my name. The one thing I did have was a years experience at Cap Gemini during my placement year from 1998/1999. I knew some lads on my course who did the 3 year degree and did not bother with the 4 year with placement year (like I did). Even back then, it was highly recommended that we did the 4 year option.

    Pretty much everyone I can remember got a job in IT whether they did the 3 year f/t or 4 year sandwich degree. But those were different days though, and jobs in the industry were plentiful then compared to today. Sometimes I do wonder where I'd be in IT now had I tried to get into the industry from 1996 straight out of 6th form.
     
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