Global Warming

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You know you are correct, you dont convincing because you know it bollocks.

 

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BM you are also correct unfortunatley because we love our respected countries the government have us where they want us. Yes its a broken system on both sides of the pond that is why they say were all gonna die unless we pay more tax to some lets say environmental think tank that are supposed to be finding a way to save us when in fact its going into these peoples pockets. Its legal theft.

 

My apologies, shambles, the tone was misconstrued by me. Sometimes, passionate text comes off as arrogance, and if I'd have read it more objectively, I'd have realized that.

I think we both agree that we, as human beings, need to be accountable to our planet. Alternate energy is not a fad, its a 'must'. Recycling shouldn't cost more than its benefit. Solar panels should be reasonably priced. However, all this goes out the window when I see the guy (in a car in front of me) toss his smoke out the window, onto the pavement. As a former smoker, I can empathize with the strenuous activity of dumping the ashtray -- but JUST DO IT. Unfortunately, that attitude is rife with people all over: The world revolves around ME.

If I'm walking around, and I see a piece of trash, I'll pick it up. A buddy of mine said, "what are you DOING?". He then continued to rib me, foretelling my next career change to the refuse authority. I told him that it ain't my Earth, and that I'm just picking up after children. If I was in a friends house, I'd stop to pick up trash (no big ideas, mates!), so why not on our planet? I don't tell this to be superior, just that it's not enough to just do your part (another error I said in an earlier post) -- we really need to, unfortunately, pick up for others, in all facets of life... not just garbage.

That said, I'm not convinced that Al Gore's campaign, and all the hype surrounding it, is even remotely accurate. I've studied both sides, and I'm not going fanatical over severely inaccurate algorithms in climate modelers. Sure, Ice Core studies have proven that CO2 has virtually doubled since 1830 (nowadays at around 320PPM). However, there was a decline from 1935 to 1945. Why? Industry only grew exponentially during that time (which is the argument for ice core studies and the CO2 rise). Now, obviously time must elapse for the CO2 to be prevalent in the atmosphere (or does it?), so that may be why the HUGE industrialization of WW2 didn't immediately raise the levels proportionally? While I agree that CO2 levels are rising because of us (probably), I think our study sample is too small to see any real trends. I, too, believe that humans affect the Earth ... I'm just not convinced of the magnitude or the genuine nature of the talking heads like Gore, who seem a bit chicken-littleish to me.

The Earth is hugely dynamic, and our science, as great as it is, cannot prove beyond the consensus. If it did, then the data would absolutely show it, and all but the nuttiest professor would agree. That simply isn't the case.

--Source

--Source

I think the biggest point of contention is not the validity of the study, just the interpretation of the data. There are two sides to every coin, and I like to look at both sides before I'm 'sold'. What I am sold on is progress and working to advance our stewardship of the Earth, I just don't need Al Gore to tell me this

 

I think that it's an education thing.

The one thing that we still don't seem to teach is social/environmental responsibility.

My old school just added Chinese to the curriculum. Go figure.

Myself?
I have never 'littered' and I don't spit on the pavement.
I recycle, but not to the point of paranoia. (Hey, it's an IT thing, the recycling guy complained after he got a hernia trying to lift the crate of empty whisky bottles).
But, we have two cars and I turn up the central heating when I'm cold.

Good or bad?
Don't know.

Then the government tells us that the environment is key to the agenda. Sends out a load of letters on non-recycled paper, puts a load of metal signs up telling me not to litter and invests in an electrical billboard by the side of a motorway telling me I shouldn't be driving to work.

And I must say, as much as I would love the world to be a good clean place, I look at the behaviour of those around me (the guy who has dumped his old sofa in a hedge) and I think

What can I possibly do against this?

I'm sure that is the same for a lot of us.

 

Loads of good points. I suddenly don't feel all alone here...

Some replies:

The thing about cattle and methane is quite likely true. Cows do belch a lot of green house gases. The argument then goes something along the lines of 'Cows are natural and they have always belched - it's never been a problem before, so all this man-made global warming stuff is nonsense'. The error in this argument is that Cows are part of a huge industrial process (farming) which in the last 100 years has changed out of all recognition. The number of cows on the planet is far larger than it would be were nature in charge, and is far larger now than it was 100 years ago. We have to find the meat to put in burgers somehow. Basically, this is another man-made problem.

Swamps do naturally emit CO2. So do peat bogs. And they have done for millions of years with no bad effect on the world. But they also absorb carbon, locking it away from the environment. Think about it - what is the wet stuff in a swamp? It's rotted plant material, mostly, but also the odd cow. At the bottom of these things, the materials might be thousands of years old. One of the elements in greatest abundance in that mess will be Carbon. One day, a million years in the future, you might be looking at coal. What swamps and peat bogs have in common is the rate at which they emit CO2 and Methane is increased when they get warm. Which increases global warming. Which warms the bogs up so that they release more CO2, which increases global warming... You get the idea.

Tax often fails to work as a 'green incentive' because politicians are cowardly in the way they apply it. If the tax actually reflected the damage done by any given activity, then it would definitely have an effect. If fuel taxes are high, then people will look for alternative ways to travel, or adjust their lifestyles. But obviously, the alternatives also need to be made available. Use the tax to pay for effective public transport. The reason politicians fail to apply the taxes they know are needed is because there is always some smart-ass who says 'Vote for me - I'll reduce taxation.' And because the public are poorly-educated about politics and environmental issues, they all take the short-termist view, look out for number 1, and vote the smart-ass in.

The argument about big and small government is interesting. I believe that in a globalised world, the role of government needs to be global in nature. Defence of the realm only won't stop your neighbour from slowly poisoning the air that we all breath... But I think this might be another thread.

Fortch, I think we are in agreement about a lot of this. Certainly we seem to agree that conservation and energy reduction measures are worthwhile. But we clearly differ around the global warming thing. However, even there, I think we share some ground. I really, sincerely hope that, having looked at the evidence I have access to and understand, I have come down on the wrong side of the fence. But I don't like the odds very much.

JonnyMX - What do you think might be the most useful language for a child to learn at school? French, spoken by 78 million people, or Mandarin, spoken by 873 million, in a country that will one day replace the USA as the world's superpower? Or Binary? I know what my money is on, and it isn't binary because computers will speak our language soon enough...

But you are completely right about the way government sends the message. It's a joke. And the music concert the other day - don't even get me started!

 

It's a rule of our Universre that what comes to Live has to end one day. The Fact is World named planet is dying if not by Global Warming then it might be by Comet struking to us or somthing else. The fact is Sun will also dye we cannot run away from this Fact this is our Destiny . if our childrens or grand childrens will face it then it's there Fate we are helpless.

Ya but this true that we can help this world to extend it's life. At least we will have the satisfation in our mind that we are not responsible to end this world. To stop this global warming the 1st step we can do is stop the complete Activity of the World at a time Once in the 6 months stop the activity's for 24 hrs. by this mean that we should not use CO2 realising Objects Like CARS/ Truck/ Deodrants etc... what ever.

this will definely help us but this is all in hands of our so called GOVT.

 

To be honest that's a tad bit insulting! You would be surprised on how up to speed the public is with politics!

Do us all a favour shambles, hold back on assuming that we and the general public are ignorant to you wise words on the Global Warming debate...fact is that a lot of people simply don't believe what is being said about it by govt!

Also don't forget that a lot of jobs rely on the global warming myth - with that in mind I think it is safe to say that certain groups have a keen financial interest in the dying planet!

Finally, We're all being told that Global Warming is the greatest threat to us! But all the govt do is put up taxes and impose trade restrictions on polluting countries - funny how china fits into that! As a keen World War 2 buff I'd like to add something from history! In 1940 Hitler and his Wehrmacht were the greatest threat to the civilised world! At that time the govt of this nation and many others teamed together to defeat this evil man! The economies of nations and the lives of millions were ruined in a period of 5 years and the old order in europe was destroyed! But at the end of that great effort the evil of Nazism was wiped off the planet forever!

Now fast forward 50 odd years and once again civilisation is facing another great threat: Global Warming. 20 years after that big threat was revealed we're still facing it??? We have been told constatly that "something can be done if we act now!" oh btw acting now was the 80s, 90s and 21st centuary! The "now" is nearly 30 years old??? The great threat is still there; it's a bit like having the germans in 1940 waiting at the channel coast in france to invade but taking 30 years to do it! Would we tolerate it? No! The govt would beg, borrow and steal to stop it like they did in 1940. All that I've seen so far is:

* Taxes raised for the motorist
* More & more insulation company vans driving up and down the motorway wasting fuel, contributing to pollution and taking OUR taxes from energy saving grants??
* Long drawn out pointless wars using ordinace that no doubt contains carbon when it explodes
* Bins emptied less often - contributing towards other sorts of pollution

...and the list goes on!

If Global warming were really this great threat then I'm sure the govts of the world would team together to eradicate it! But the haven't...and why? BEACUSE IT'S A GREAT MONEY MAKER!!!!!

 

oops! Just as I thought I was getting the hang of not alienating people...

I am one of the public. Quite frankly, the majority of people really don't have a clue. They'll vote for someone because 'we've always voted for the (insert name of party here)', or they'll refuse to vote for someone 'because he's (insert racial group here)'. Or, as I have said, they'll vote for whoever they think will put more money in their pocket without considering that the schools, hospitals, police force and services that we all depend on need to be paid for somehow. Where do they think the money comes from?
You can dispute it, that's your right, but generally, the public are incredibly poorly informed about the world around them - no matter what country they come from. I'll look for the most ridiculous statistic I can find to back that up if you like. There is obviously an argument to be had about Taxation and how it is used - but if you vote for a low-tax government, don't expect them to be able to provide the services you want. And especially, when your town is under six feet of water in 20 years time, don't come whining to me about flood-defences or the council's failure to provide sandbags...

The reason the governments of the world don't band together to do something about global warming is that they (mostly) couldn't give a flying fig about what happens in 50 years time. Why should they? They are just people, wealthy people, most of them, who will be long gone by the time the spit hits the fan. As long as they get paid now, and get a good pension now, why on earth would they care? And if they do happen to care, then they can't do a thing, because it involves asking the public for money, and the public, we know, think they are being robbed, and will immediately vote for the smart-ass...

Sorry - rant...

 

My point wasn't really about which language is the most beneficial.

The fact is that another language has been added to the curriculum - and lets face it, for most people Chinese isn't going to be a great help in life - rather than teaching social responsibility or environmental issues.

 

Yeah, fair enough...

Although I guess it might be useful to know how to tell them to 'stop messing with the atmosphere' when we have water lapping at our toes...

 

...and they're going to look at us... and laugh... saying, "Come make us."

I'm pretty well versed on this topic, as I speak Mandarin, trained in the Army in the capacity shown in my sig, below.

 

Yeah and soon as we tell them to stop we will get a rocket up our asre then no-one will be bothered about global warming because there'll be nuclear fire raging around the earth wiping out everything in its path.

Dont forget if the Chinese kicked off so to speak that would be that, if you know what I mean

 

EXACTLY

 

It's got me thinking.

Last year, many parts of the UK still had a hosepipe ban in November, which was frankly more stupid than ever before.

Everyone blamed global warming.

I remember some boffin saying that we would need it to rain for three months solid to get the water table back to normal.

Now we are in the middle of July and it is still p1ss1ng it down.

Everyone is blaming global warming.

So, is it just a coincidence, or is this an example of the planet trying to maintain an equilibrium?

 

It's just a bunch of people wanting to blame natural events on something because they don't understand (or don't like) the fact that the world's climate can change even without our help.

How's this... Australia had the hottest May they've ever had since 1958. But then they turned around and had the coldest June they've had since 1950! (link)

uh... waitasec...

So what is it? Warming? Cooling?

Oooooh, it's *change*, I get it... so no matter what happens - hot, cold, wet, dry, windy, fewer hurricanes, more hurricanes - you'll be "correct in your findings", right?

Looking at those dates... "hottest May since 1958", "coldest June since 1950"... what the heck happened in 1958? or 1950? Were we contributing more CO2 then?

Dudes... this is weather. It's predictably random, and always has been - if you don't like the weather, just wait, and it will change. Our meteorologists can't even get tomorrow's temperature right, much less that of 100 years from now or 1000 years ago! When people say that the weather in a certain small geographical area is "absolute proof of global warming!", they're talking with their heart and not their head.

 

At the end of this supposed summer were having in England itll come to the end and all get blamed on global warmin there will still be a hosepipe ban and we will have to pay some sort of new tax for some new government initiative about building flood defences or something like that.

Shouldnt any town with flood plains have the defences anyway?

Why cant people understand that the climate changes is a natural thing and is gonna happen wether we put stuff in a green box or take stuff to a recycling centre or f****** buy a pedal bike aint gonna stop it.

 

Facts are things you can say with 100% certainty. Getting 95% of scientists to agree on anything may be a miracle, but that doesn't make what they say a fact. So the debate will continue and Al Gore will make another $100 million.

Oh, and the government doesn't need tax money to pay for anything. It's like some of you think there's a finite amount of wealth in the world that the central banks let out slowly. Labor creates wealth. All central bankers do is monopolize the production and distribution of government paper.

 

I think it might be a bit early to claim that recent weather events are the direct result of global warming - it would be a hard case to prove. But Global Warming does not mean that the temperature will rise everywhere by the same amount. In some places, the temperature may well rise by 6 or 7 degrees on average, or even more. Other places may see an overall cooling as wind patterns and ocean currents adjust. One of the main effects of introducing heat into the system is that storm activity is likely to increase in places that already experience storm activity. This is because storms are driven by energy derived from heat which might be found in greater abundance in a warmer ocean. the most likely effect of global warming would be unexpected micro-climate changes...

- I don't understand...

 

Yes, but even if the weather rises in an area by 6 or 7 degrees, and it gets much colder in another area, and ocean currents adjust, and weather patterns change... we *still* won't know that this is or isn't just a natural occurrence that has been happening since the beginning of time. I agree with you that the weather patterns are changing. But they've been changing as long as I've been alive, and if I had to guess, I'd say it was happening long before I came into existence. ;)