e-petition

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Why would students want to pass in that way? Most don't even know they're using braindumps... they're just "using something the instructor gave them". Therefore, it MUST be legit, right? And the poor student doesn't know any better.

Exactly, I agree - you *should* go to a course to make you a better tech, not just to help you pass an exam.

So what do I think is the best course of action? Don't use training providers, plain and simple. I always advocate self-study. But if you MUST use a training provider, do your research beforehand, just like you would for ANY major purchase you make or ANY school you decide to attend. The information is ALREADY OUT THERE for those who choose to look, I can promise you.

Of course, you might still argue that people won't do research, so we "must rely on government to protect us". Problem is, government can't protect us from everything. At some point, we must learn to accept responsibility for our actions and decisions. If there were a way for government to permanently shut down shady training companies, I'd be all for it, my friend. But unfortunately, they won't... government is often as much a problem as the providers.

TP's DO affect everyone, especially if they're shady. How many times have you heard of people giving wannabe techs bad advice about getting a job making 35K as soon as they pass their courses or get a bunch of certifications without a lick of experience? Just the fact that they enable unqualified people (in some cases, not all) to get certified affects all of us who ARE qualified to hold the certifications. So I disagree that TPs don't affect everyone... they affect our entire industry.

 

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In other words, you are right because you are right. It doesn't work like that. Lots of people who have worked in IT for years know what they are talking about and they still regularly get it wrong - that's why we are saddled with big IT projects that don't work...

Yes, the information is out there. But how does anyone distinguish between my correct assessment of the situation and your wrong one?

Look - I don't mean to be a pain, but it really isn't as simple as you seem to believe. I know this for a fact, because I have an Upper Second Honours degree in Philosophy...

And finally, just to prove the point...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forum

http://www.painintheenglish.com/post.php?id=627

There is space for more than one answer, Mr. Boson. Stop playing the absolutist!

 

No, in other words, I'm right because I've worked in IT certification training for many years. You, on the other hand, are a student who got burned and has an axe to grind.

What does your Philosophy degree have to do with anything about training providers? At this point, you're simply trolling.

EDIT: According to your PITE link, the plural for forum as "fora" refers only to definition #2, "(in an ancient Roman city) a public square or marketplace used for judicial and other business.", not definition #1, "a meeting or medium for an exchange of views," in which the plural is "forums". And Wikipedia can hardly be considered authoritative for anything.

 

This thread is becoming a bit surreal...

Shambles - we all know and accept that there are dodgy TPs out there.

There are also dodgy car salesmen.

Even big providers such as gas, electric and water suppliers - who are 'regulated' - are always falling short of the mark and getting complaints.

To cut a long story short, the main flaw in your argument is that you are asking for statistics.

Even if we could 'force' TPs to publish their statistics, they would mean whatever they wanted them to mean.

Even the government does it. See the report that people claiming incapacity benefit has fallen by a massive XX%?

Is that because there was a revolution in the NHS which cured all the sick people? Or did the government just create a few more hoops to jump through for sick people to be able to claim incapacity?

 

Does anyone need the wikipedia link for 'irony'?

My point, and it isn't difficult, is that no amount of education or IT certification or experience gives any of us the last word on right or wrong. That applies to me and it applies to everyone else, too. Wherever they work...

Regarding the wikipedia link on fora, Can I suggest actually reading past the first few lines? And maybe do the same for my posts too...

 

Guys please calm down. Im not locking this thread, yet.

It was created to bring to light a e-petition so please can we cut all other comments. If we going to have comments like this being thrown from one end of the Atlantic to the other we will have no choice but to close this thread.

Thanks

Zimbo
Moderator

 

I think I'm going to have to agree here. Its obvious that each person believes his/her point to be truth, and cant be shifted from it. The rest is just fighting for position and could go on forever.

The bottom line is...If you think it COULD have an effect on lousy TP's sign the petition, if not, then don't. No amount of arguing is going to make me think that this petition is bad, and no amount of arguing is going to make its dissenters think its a good thing. I signed it as its my right, no matter what other people think, as its anybody else's right NOT to sign it.

 

I didn't say I had the last word on right and wrong. You summarily disagreed with my reasoning because you didn't like what I had to say, even though I have extensive experience in an industry that you don't work in.

It'd be like you working as a network admin for (or owning) a consulting company, and me hiring a consulting company for a job. Then my server crashes because of the tech they send, and I start screaming that statistics should be taken on every time that a server crashes at a company where a consulting company works, regardless of whether the consulting company touched that server or not (even though there's no way that those statistics could even be collected by the consulting company, similar to how you insist that exam pass/fail records be collected by each training company). The statistics requested would not indicate whether the consulting company is a good one, and your company could potentially suffer for it. Similarly, the statistics you request training companies provide would not indicate whether a training company is a good one.

I know what Wikipedia is, and it's not an authoritative source as it is editable by anyone. And I did read through the entirety of the PITE link.

 

Sorry, Zimbo - last thing I need is another locked thread...

(How's that look, Sparky? )

 

But we are discussing the e-petition, and why it's a good/bad reason to sign it.

 

Yeah ok but everyone needed to take a chill pill mate..

 

Just to stick my oar in again on this thread (although I promised myself I wouldn't), I suspect that the above refers to things like the Police National Database and the NHS' 'joined up' systems (amongst others). The above statement couldn't be more wrong. Technically I would wager it is 95% nothing to do with the technical ability of the staff on those projects that leads to them being delayed, over budget or cancelled. It is due to unrealistic expectations of the end-users, public or government - uually because of the people signing the contracts.

Please don't take the usual uneducated public approach of trotting out the media's lazy adages about IT projects 'spiralling out of control'. Its usually sod all to do with the poor bastards on the coal face, who are expected to deliver things that are either flat out impossible, or so difficult as to be ALMOST impossible. Rehashing old chestnuts like this is the reason why IT as an industry is looked down on by people who (ahem) 'work' in HR, Finance or whatever else it is they do.

 

zebulebu - You may be right. You may be wrong. The problem may well be about unrealistic expectations, but it might equally be about unrealistic claims, fuelled maybe by poor communication about what it is actually possible to do within the given budget. IT people cannot just wash their hands of this. Equally, it would be unfair to blame them for the entirety of the problem. It's a truism that poo always rolls downhill - usually to the IT departments. My underlying point (I think) still stands - No-one has an opinion that should not be questioned. Except for the forum moderators, obviously...

I'd like this discussion to continue - I think there may be something useful to come out of it. But I don't want to have to continue to defend myself in a name-calling game, or have others tell me what my motivation is, or what I am thinking, or that my opinion is less valuable than someone else's.

Basic questions:

Is the current situation, where fora (forums?) such as these are the only way of gleaning information about TPs good enough?

Should there be standards? If so, how should they be measured? Should there be regulations? Who regulates?

How might we deal with rogue TPs (Assuming they exist)?

I think the answer to the first question is No. I believe the answer to the next set of questions is Yes. And I believe that having the TPs provide evidence of performance is a small step in the right direction. I also believe that even if there are issues with the way this might be achieved, it is worth pursuing.

And I think a petition, to be worth anything, has to be clear and simple. It has to state an intention, but not baffle anyone with too much detail. It won't be what actually happens. It might be a start.

 

Just to let you all know that we are watching this thread with a close eye and are a tad concerned that things might get out of hand.. Please feel free to continue to offer constructive opinions and debate but do make sure your posts can't be misconstrued as a personal attack on anyone - thanks

 

Have you checked out the ODLQC?

But my point from previously was that there are other industries which are regulated quite stictly (in theory) by 'official' bodies.

The problem is, it still doesn't stop some poor sod being sent an incorrect gas bill, getting their phone cut off by accident or ending up with some cr@p in their petrol.

These regulating authorities probably have stats coming out of their ears, but it isn't much of a comfort to the poor sod who is a 'blip' in their stats and has to spend six months arguing with a machine to try and sort his gas bill out.

 

Granted. But I wonder how bad things would be for us consumers if there were no regulation of the Utility companies at all...

 

Doesn't bear thinking about.

Difference is, utility companies have you by the nuts. There is more choice now than there was before, but a few years ago if BT decided to double the cost of calls then you wouldn't have had much of a choice other than to accept it or do without a phone. Regulation helps prevent that sort of thing - utilities are something we 'need'.

A TP on the other hand is like a gym, social club whatever. If you want to use it, fine. You're expected to do your homework and then pick one. There is no sinister threat to the poulation that needs to be regulated.