Can you trust community offcers?

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Well, that's the difference between you and I. I don't believe in a nanny state, or trust it to ever take the place of people being good neighbors and decent human beings. For one thing it's impossibly expensive. Do you realize that you Brit's pay almost 100% more in taxes, per dollar/pound earned, than we Americans do? And yet you're still complaining that there isn't enough people employed by the government to take care of you the right way.

Well, here's a news flash for you. There will never be enough people employed by the government to take the place of people who care more for human life than for policy. Any way of thinking that says there is, is sadly misguided. What are you going to have, one government employee for each possibile problem that could ever happen standing on every corner of your town? Everyone would be employed by the government, and then just who would support you all?

The nanny state is a self-destructing mechanism. It can never succeed, because if it actually hired enough people to do the job, per policy, that some people think it ought to do, there would be no one left in the country to work productively, earn a living, and pay the taxes it takes to fund that government.

 

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Well said GBL

I remember being witness to some pizzheads outside my local pub. They got chucked out of the pub for chucking a chair across the room! They pissed all over the front door and wall of the pub. By the time the Police arrived they had gone.

But both police officers had to take notes. Even after 50 minustes they were still out there writing notes on a A4 pad. I asked one of them why they have to write som much and he said it's half of the job these days. Paper work, it what slows the job down

 

I think you misread my point Freddy, and you are putting words in my mouth. I dont actually Believe in a nanny state. I do agree that a lot this redtape crap needs to be cut.

You'll note that I didnt say I liked that they couldnt do anything. I dont! But my eyes ARE open enough to recognise that this is the way things are. People love to complain about things. They dont like it this way, they dont like it that way. Enough people complain and things change. Then people complain about how it was better before. Well newsflash! you're the one that brought the change on.

The point Im making is that you cant get things locked down and then complain because people cant do things, because you got it locked down.

Now, this has the potential to rapidly turn into a flamewar. So, to stop that happening, this is my last word on this subject. You may, as is your right, believe Im a callous, uncaring barbarian all you like.

 

Fergal,

Sorry, I wasn't trying to flame you. From what you had to say it sounded to me as if you thought a nanny state was a good thing.

Just because I'm blunt in what I say doesn't mean what many people seem to think it means. I can disagree with a person's point of view and not dislike them. To me, I was just juxtaposing the difference between the value of good neighbors and decent human beings, and a nanny state, not trying to put you down personally.

 

Freddy - Do they have community officers in the US?

 

That's true about, Brits do love to complain, we moan about the weather all the time, It's too wet, too cold, overcast, too hot!!

Never happy with what we got!

 

Have you actually tried to get a job as a police officer in the UK? There are thousands of applications every year, but due to the police force having to be seen as being ethnically diverse it is near impossible to get in! If you are a white male then you have the least chance of getting through the selection process.

I do not disagree with there being different raced/ethnic police officers, because this encourages smaller ethnic communities to have confidence in the police. What I do disagree with is the positive discimination that prevents the police force from selecting most suitable candidate because he/she is not the correct race/nationality.

That is slightly off topic, though and back to the point.

I do feel that CSO's do play a positive role in the community. Although they are limited to enforce only a small part of the law, they are still eyes and ears on the ground that can relay information back to the police.

I would rather have a CSO wandering around my neighbourhood than no police presence at all.

 

Stoney
"I would rather have a CSO wandering around my neighbourhood than no police presence at all"

I disagree, because what the hell are we paying council tax for if the government are going to provide us with untrained police officers.

I agree with Ryan, the government should make it compulsory that all represented members of the police MUST be trained in CPR.

The basic need in an emergency situation.

What happens if you’re in a situation where your friend/neighbor/family needs CPR? At least with the police you would feel reassured they are trying to save them not standing there doing nothing except waiting for backup to arrive!

Maybe you can provide an example whereby a CSO was more of advantage than a police officer, then maybe I would change my mind!

It's like ASBO's a complete waste of time!!

 

Hope is not a real story !!!
Is like if you see a person falling from the stairs and you don't stop
because you are not a doctor.

 

My original post was more aimed at answering GBL's point about CSO's being people that can't make it into the police force. There may well be some who have failed the selection process that have gone on to become CSO's, but for most, it is actually a step towards becoming a police officer because it so hard to get in these days.

As I didn't answer the original point in my post so allow me to clarify.

CSO's standing by and letting someone drown:

As with Fergal I can understand their reasoning for not getting involved. I do not agree with their decision, and their in-action is just as bad as the policy that forced them to make that decision.

I don't think it matters what is in your job description, it is damn right cold to stand by and watch someone struggle for their life. I think shows a lack of humanity for those involved.

Government making public safety officers have CPR training:

Again I agree. You can guarantee that at some point during their career these people will be the first persons on the scene of an emergency that requires urgent medical treatment. It only makes sense that they have basic first aid training.

I never implied that a CSO would be of more advantage than a police officer.

If the government put enough money into the police force then we would not have CSO's. The sad fact of the matter is that the government is not providing enough funding for the police. We therefore have a lack of people in an authorative position patrolling our streets to prevent crime. A CSO is, if nothing else, a visible presence and a means to despatch police in areas where crimes are taking place.

I am not saying I like having CSO's in place of fully qualified police officers, but at least there is some form of an authorative presence.

 

Bringing this around to relevance on a technical topic... the same is true regarding Windows Vista. People complain about the lack of security in Windows XP.

<whine>Why does Windows XP let any old app run with system rights? Why isn't the Administrator account disabled? Why can rootkits attack the Windows kernel?</whine>

So for Vista, Microsoft creates UAC, disables the Administrator account by default, and protects the kernel... so then we get:

<whine>Why do I have to click for confirmation when I do something that requires Admin rights? Why do I have to confirm when an application changes something in Windows? Where's my Administrator account? Why can't I use my old anti-virus application with Vista? Everything was better when I had Windows XP!</whine>

Folks, you can't have it both ways. Either you want something, or you don't.

((side note: please don't turn this into a "They should just use Linux" discussion... this is just an example to illustrate Fergal's comment.))

 

Actually in Boise, we do have what you would call "community officers". They're volunteers and at least where I live, they patrol the greenbelt around the Boise River. Periodically people are attacked on isolated parts of the Greenbelt and their main purpose is to be present to prevent such things. I don't know what their specific training is though or what expectations would be if they saw someone drowning in the river.

Last week, a long haul trucker clipped a maintenance vehicle on the freeway running through town. The truck jacknifed and burst into flames. The maintenance guys and a regular guy who was just driving by all stopped and tried to get the truck driver out of the cab. It was fully engulfed in no time and tires were exploding, throwing debris all over the place.

The cops and media called these guys heroes for even trying but there was nothing they could have done. The extreme heat from the flames was just too great for anyone to have gotten through enough to reach the truck.

In the U.S., we have something called a "good samaritan" law which protects such people from civil suit if they try to help or rescue someone and it goes bad. It was enacted so that any civilian rescuer wouldn't be inhibited from trying to help his or her fellow just because they might be sued.

 

A useful breakdown of the UK duty of care and good samaritan situation
http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/legal.htm

 

I dissagree they may make some people feel safe but they don't make me feel safe bcause they don't have any power so I know if something happens then they can't do anything.

All they can do is call the cops, so whats the point?

To answer your question, no I have never applied to be a copper but my brother applied to the met when he was 20, they were only going to pick one person out of 100 applicants he failed the physical tests due to his knackered leg (he broke it when he used to run and also missed out on trial at Liverpool when him and Stephen Harkness went for trials there).

The simple case is there should be more police on the streets not CSO's

 

I think this statement by the chairman of the police federation is what most of us here think:-

Paul Kelly, chairman of the Police Federation in Manchester said

"PCSOs are not capable of dealing with emergency situations.

The public are being fooled. We are sending people out there who are dressed as police officers."

That's the problem we see the uniform and think they are police officers and not Civilians in uniforms.

SOURCE:-call for PCSOs to be scrapped ITN NEWS

 

My understanding of the story is as follows. These PCSO did not stand by and let anybody drown. When they arrived on the scene the Boy in question was nowhere to be seen. The lake has murky dark water's and a sudden drop off. Now if they could of got a visual on the child and then stood there doing nothing i could understand the anger, but seeing as they had no visual, why go and jump into the unknown? We could have been sitting here talking about more than just the one casualty.

 

Yes and thoses crucial minutes could of saved a life, but another police man arrived on the scene (just minutes after the PCSO arrived) and dived into the water. If Jordon was still submerged and not visible to them or the Police Officer why did the Police officer and members of the public go into the water??

Minutes later they find him dragg him out and take him to hospital!
It's got nothing to do with how dark and muddy the water was. They were ordered by Greater Manchester Force to wait for a regular officer. Because they have not got the training for emergency situations.


PCSO's are trained in first aid (but not CPR) must be fit to walk, but don't need to pass a fitness test.

The minimum age limit to join the police force is 18.
There's no age limit for PCSO, with the youngest being 16 years old and working for Thames Valley.

PCSO's receive 3 weeks training unlike the police who have 18 weeks.

Tell me what is the difference between PCSOs and neighborhood watch? Besides the fact that PCSOs are paid &#163;19,674 per year(max)

 

I don't care if they have first aid training or whatever THEY SHOULD HAVE WENT IN TO GET HIM I WOULD. I understand if they could'nt swim but to just stand there and say or we'll wait for the proper filth to come is just plain wrong.

Personally if I was his parents I would be complaining to the highest authority I could and get this bloody no need community officers thing stopped. The money these jobsworths get should be spent on the real coppers so maybe they can actually do their jobs.

 

Arroryn, Check out this website it describes what role you would play if you were a PCSO and how much you get paid!!

PCSO role as defined by ACPO and law

I concur with you there on that last bit there's too much paper work in the job. So much for saving the trees