Braindumps and Braindumpers

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by ffreeloader, Feb 1, 2006.

  1. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."
    Margaret Mead
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, A+
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  2. simongrahamuk
    Honorary Member

    simongrahamuk Hmmmmmmm?

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    I've been reading this thread with interest and just thought that I'd pop in my 2 pence now.

    Certifications have been dramatically devalued by braindumpers. We all know this.


    It is becoming more and more common for people to *pass* certification exams through the use of *actual exam questions*. Now although this really annoys me it is not a new practice, schools have been doing something simillar for years through the use of past exam papers. The difference here though is that the exam does not come around once a year, but can be taken at any time, and because you can only ask so many questions on a single subject these questions get *leaked*.

    It is because of braindumpers that I have, in part, turned my back on certifications and opted to study academicaly. That is not to say that I do not plan on doing any certifications in future, far from it, but they will only be the ones that are of interest to me, and not on any specific path.

    From an employment perspective could I be doing myself out of some positions because I don't have the certs that they want? Well, yes I suppose I could be, but if the certs mean that much to the employer, then perhaps they are missing something in their staff that is equally as valuable, experience and genuine passion for the subject.

    With academic study it is very difficult to *cheat* your way through, you are assessed by many different means, presentations, practical exams, written assignments, multiple choice exams, written exams. All of which you must individually pass in order to pass the complete unit of study. You could brain dump an exam paper, but what about a practical?

    In many ways I'm very interested to see how Microsofts new MCA cert turns out, as it promises to have elements of peer assessment involved in it, so it will be interesting to see.

    8)
     
  3. michael78

    michael78 Terabyte Poster

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    Personally I don't like braindumpers but on the flip side for compTIA exams I can see why people are driven to it. Some of their certs are so poorly writen and worded that it just confuses the hell out of people. I was angry when I took my server+ exam as it was americanised (if thats a word) and I couldn't understand some of the questions. Just because I speak english doesn't mean I understand american english.

    It annoys me when sloppy cert providers don't regionalise their certs for their biggest markets. There is no excuse for the big providers with big budgets on their side to do this.
     
    Certifications: A+ | Network+ | Security+ | MCP | MCDST | MCTS: Hyper-V | MCTS: AD | MCTS: Exchange 2007 | MCTS: Windows 7 | MCSA: 2003 | ITIL Foundation v3 | CCA: Xenapp 5.0 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator on Windows 7 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Support Technician on Windows 7
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  4. _omni_

    _omni_ Megabyte Poster

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    how can you not understand 'american english', it's way clearer than 'english english'. :blink
     
    Certifications: MCSE 2003, MCSA:M
  5. michael78

    michael78 Terabyte Poster

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    Would disagree with that 100%. I don't understand some terminology just like american's don't understand some of our terminology. words mean one thing in america and another in the UK and some words mean nothings to me but do to an american. I had 3 questions like that on the server+ exam that I just didn't understand.
     
    Certifications: A+ | Network+ | Security+ | MCP | MCDST | MCTS: Hyper-V | MCTS: AD | MCTS: Exchange 2007 | MCTS: Windows 7 | MCSA: 2003 | ITIL Foundation v3 | CCA: Xenapp 5.0 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator on Windows 7 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Support Technician on Windows 7
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  6. Rostros22

    Rostros22 Kilobyte Poster

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    I presume it is the same in any industry, be it accounting, retail, environment etc. If there is an examination to be taken someone will cheat, someone always does.

    Through School, College and University I always knew someone who acquired an exam paper, and yes it is so easy to think “can’t be bothered revising tonight give us the answers” that’s why they did / do it.

    I don’t condone this practise but I see why people do it. It doesn’t make them an evil person like I think some of you here make out, its just their way.

    When I started my certification path late last year I came across test**** papers while google-ing around.

    If it wasn’t for this site I would never have known that they are considered evil to honest people earning their certs.

    Their ‘revision’ method might not be the same as the way we do it and although I don’t’ condone this I do not feel I have the right the criticise them, there are plenty of things in the world I don’t agree with but that’s life.

    My view is if they ‘cheat’ that one day while employed they will get found out as they won’t be able to do the job they were hired to do.

    Just my view on things, I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, but life would be boring if that was the case.
     
    Certifications: ITIL Certs, F.A.S.T Auditor Certs
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  7. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    But what happens when an employer hires 3 or 4 of these people? Then when he sees people, you for instance, coming in with a certification, what does he think? If he's human he goes, Oh, there's another one of those "MCSE's" that don't know anything. That certification thing is a crock..... All your honest effort is now worthless because a bunch of people cheated and you're going to be smeared with the same brush because you have the same certification.

    You say, "that's not fair"? It's life and it's human nature. It's also the way business people look at it. Labor costs are a major consideration for a business and businessmen are going to avoid something like the plague that hasn't worked in the past. You and your certification, unless you have quite a few years of experience, will be the first to be eliminated in the hiring process.
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, A+
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  8. simongrahamuk
    Honorary Member

    simongrahamuk Hmmmmmmm?

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    Building onto what Freddy has just said, what about the places where people really do know their stuff, but braindump just to keep their jobs?

    Just beacuse someone knows their stuff doesn't mean that they can pass an exam on the subject. Remember, there is the <insert vendor here> way and then there is the real world way.

    8)
     
  9. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    Well, as much as I can sympathise all I can say is that I have had at least that many questions per test that I have taken that I look at and say, "HUH?". The tests are not written sloppily, they are written like that on purpose. They are not "Americanised" because I know a whole lot of Americans who say they can't understand the questions either.

    That's why I always recommend getting either Transcender's or SelfTest Software's practise tests. They approximate the types of questions and the wording of the questions very well. It gives you an idea as to how questions will be asked....

    And in the way the questions on these tests are asked,it's worth your while to have some experience decyphering questions becaue it may very well mean the difference between passing and flunking the exam.
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, A+
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  10. Rostros22

    Rostros22 Kilobyte Poster

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    Freddy I do agree with you that the hard work that I am doing might be smeared by these people. But hopefully this will change the way interviews are conducted, not just looking at certs and thinking “Oh look he’s MCSE certified, obviously he can maintain the network”.

    You mentioned experience which is what I have got, and not certifications. So maybe I am looking at it from my own point of view too much.

    As I have said I don’t condone what is being done but I ‘kind of’ accept the fact that it is about, always has been and probably will be unless the certification vendors can shut these places down.

    But then they will another way!

    I am not here to argue about it, just to add my thoughts. I agree with you on your points, buy maybe I am just a bit more laid back about it.

    If as you say I go for a job and don’t get it because someone has smeared the qualifications I obtain then I will probably be starting a new thread like this!
     
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  11. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    I guess I really don't understand this way of looking at things. It basically says, "I already know everything so I'll cheat my way through." To that I say, HUH?. The fact that a person has years of experience behind them should lessen the motivation to cheat. The fact that they feel they need to have the questions and answers beforehand tells me that just maybe they don't know as much as they profess to know.

    I've run across a few guys who have been in IT for quite a while who had a problem understanding AD because it was so much different than how NT4 did things and they had problems changing the way they looked at domains. I also know that from what I have studied into Novell's domain structure that there are enough differences between Novell's domains and AD to be confusing.

    The only way to clear these issues up is to study and work with the concepts. I've read a lot on AD and how many people think they can configure and implement AD domains better than MS, but after I have looked at several of those, and read MS's design and implementation documentation in their resource kits I'd have to say I agree with MS and that they know more about their AD than anyone else. ...And you know how much I like to admit to agreeing with MS.... :dry

    I guess my point boils down to: if someone thinks they're justified in cheating their way through certification just because they have experience, then they're basically saying, I have nothing left to learn in this industry. I don't know anyone who's really competent in any field who takes that attitude about their field. Truly competent people are always learning, always improving, and never consider themselves above the effort it takes to truly learn....
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, A+
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  12. Bluerinse
    Honorary Member

    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

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    Well I was in IT for 7 years prior to starting my certification track. All my experience was hands on, I knew how to make things work in the environment that I was in. Anything new was a time consuming struggle.

    Now, looking back, I realise that I knew very little then about networking. I had a vague idea of what WINS does, I had a vague idea of what a host file was or an LMHOST file. I had some appreciation of TCP/IP but did not understand subnetting. I knew nothing about DNS, or Active Directory. I was typical of the people that do things without theoretical knowledge. I was basically clueless, fumbling about with wizards that never seemed to do what I thought they should.

    Yesterday I was asked to remote into a friends ISA server (I met him on the ISA course). He had set up an FTP server using IIS but was unable to connect to it externally (from the net). He had spent three days trying everything he could think of to no avail. He had created custom packet filters, enabled any protocol to be allowed in protocol rules and basically opened the firewall up to everything and still no joy. You see ISA is clever, in order to make an internal server available to the public via the Internet, you *need* to create a server publishing rule. This he had not done. Once I had the necessary info, ie the IP addy of his external ISA NIC and the IP addy of his FTP server, I was able to sort it out in less than 5 minutes. That is the difference between someone that knows what they are doing from hands on experience and sound knowledge through study and certification. It all boils down to efficiency.

    Get the certs by all means, but it really is the knowledge that is valuable, not the piece of paper.
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronics - MCSA (W2K) MCSE (W2K)

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