Afterlife stuff

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by zxspectrum, Jun 20, 2009.

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  1. greenbrucelee
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    I don't mean to offend mate, that's just what I have witnessed.

    Again this is what I have witnessed with kids I went to school with. I went to school with a girl who wasn't allowed to watch superman because the devil made him fly or watch certain music TV shows because it played the devils music. She also wasn't allowed to take part in halloween events because her parents said it was promoting evil.

    Above is what I think is controlling.

    I agree no one is perfect but I don't need something to make me feel better about myself or to try and make people the same as me which is what I believe religions do.

    This was the whole church, they didn't want to know after she got divorced,

    I have to dissagree and don't get me wrong it's not just Christians I am commenting about, I just used them as an example as my foster Mother is one.

    It seems that this church did have that view.
     
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  2. dmarsh
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    dmarsh Petabyte Poster

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    Sometimes the system is as guilty as the individual, thats why we have corporate manslaughter. Sometimes both the regime and the individual are accountable. Organisations that encourage or knowingly permit or ignore unspeakable acts by their members are also culpable. I am not bitter, I've never suffered at the hands of such an institution, I just believe in justice and preventing such things from occuring in the first place.

    Go read the Ryan Report and tell me religions are never used to control people and commit evil. Just one religion being used in such a way is enough for me to call all of them into question.

    If someone expects to be my spritial leader they have to constantly earn that right, that means they should lead by example. Frankly the whole concept of 'followers' makes me nervous.

    Thats probably because you believe religion to be a harmless folly or piece of cultural nostalgia. I do not believe all religion is harmless. The church used to be involved in politics, they raised their own taxes, even had their own armies.

    How do you know religion does not offer false hope? You agreed they can't all be right, so surely some of them must offer false hope ? What about the religious faith healers that tell people to give up their prescription drugs ?

    So you do not think politics is ever mixed with religion ? You do not think members of a religious group are ever heavilly influenced or 'controlled' by their leaders ?

    How do people know they are getting the message and not the messenger ? Since god does not talk directly ?
     
  3. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    No, you don't offend me at all. I'm just saying that you can't summarily assume that. :)

    Sure, you can determine whether a Christian believer had Christian parents or a Muslim believer had Muslim parents... but you really don't know the journey (or lack thereof) that they took to eventually believe what they believe. There's plenty (plenty!!) of stories about people who grew up in a religion but came to believe something different - m3lt, for instance.

    What you are forced to do by your parents as a minor is one thing... what you end up doing as an adult is another. Does she still believe those things?

    You're not reading what I'm typing. That **is** controlling, because minors are controlled. But what "control" do churches have over adults? I'm not forced to attend, I'm not forced to believe, I'm not forced to give money, I'm not forced to volunteer...

    Religion doesn't make me feel better about myself. That's not the point of Christianity.

    Some religions ARE about "making people the same as you". Christianity isn't, in my opinion. Christianity is about a one-on-one personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Everything else is irrelevant.

    Okay, fine... but that ENTIRE church is made up of fallible humans - every single one of them a sinner (as are we all, both saved and unsaved alike). We do things we shouldn't... including ostracizing others. A Christian shouldn't. But many do. Doesn't justify what they do. But you can't say that Christianity (or Islam, or Buddhism) is bad because of the actions of imperfect people.

    Okay... then know that most other Christians don't have that view. You don't have to "be a good boy or girl" to go to heaven, nor can you buy your way into heaven by doing good works.
     
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  4. BosonMichael
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    I didn't say that; I was speaking about GBL's mom's particular situation. Certainly religions that teach false things DO offer false hope.

    Of course it is. Never said it wasn't. I simply say that SOME religions are not about control.

    God has talked directly, and it is my belief that he does talk directly. But putting all that aside, there's no way to know for sure whether someone is getting the words of God or of a person. I think the Bible says that if a man's words are inconsistent with what the Bible says, then that man is not speaking for God. Obviously, you would have to believe the Bible is true for that to have any influence on your decision making process...
     
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  5. Arroryn

    Arroryn we're all dooooooomed Moderator

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    Coming into this one late, it seems. A potentially fiery topic is being held in good debate, so thanks for that fellas.

    ZX - my condolences for your loss, you and your friend are both in my prayers.

    Do I believe in the afterlife? Absolutely. And I probably wouldn't be sane if I didn't, or at the very least, incredibly bitter towards the world.

    I'm not going to justify the world's reasons for why with religion - but here's my own story, for whatever two pennies its worth.

    I am quite new to religion. And when I say religion, I mean praying because of belief, not ritual; praying because of faith, not of blind hope; praying because of knowing in my heart the choice is right for me, not something I've been driven to by the back of someone else's hand.

    I was Christened as a child, and went to an Anglican school. I went through the motions insofar as any child does that goes to a CofE school and lives in a small parish in England. That's where me and faith parted, as I was getting into my teens and none of it was mandatory any more. I didn't understand why it needed to be a part of me, and so it wasn't. People that meet me today, see a confident, vibrant young woman equipped to thwack the world, or at least wrap it in duct tape if things get tricky. It wasn't always this way. I wasn't always this way.

    I'm not going into the nitty gritty here, but my life got put into perspective last year, when I lost my cousin. She was only 18, a practising Catholic, clean living and selfless. She died of SADS - sudden arrhythmic death syndrome. I only went to my local church because I knew of her faith. I wanted to insult God personally for taking my cousin away from us. I can't truly explain in words enough what happened that day, but I spent a lot of time in the churchyard talking. My family has lived in the same village for centuries, and my family takes up a sizeable space. I sat next to my Nan and poured everything out, and realised what I was doing. I went and visited each family member I remembered from my childhood, and said a prayer before I left the churchyard. I felt more at peace then than I had in years. I was still angry at the loss of my cousin, and I still couldn't understand it in the contect of religion - but after some incredibly lengthy discussions with a very good friend of mine, I bought a Bible to try to understand what my cousin saw.

    I can't say much more else without going into a small novella, other than I haven't looked back from that point.

    What is faith to me? What is Christianity to me? It's belief in humanity. We are all born capable of doing great things, and we are all born capable of doing terrible things. No human is purely good or purely evil, but we are still given the chance of eternal life, through the sacrifice made by another.

    The simple ethos of kindness to fellow man in the Bible is there for all to see - for those that want to see it.

    I know that different creeds interpret the Bible in different ways, and through this there will always regrettably be religious conflict of one kind or another - just another way man is flawed, in my opinion.

    But I believe what I know feels right in my heart - and that allows me to speak to my cousin, and all family and friends that I have lost, and know that they hear me and they are loved and remembered.

    I'll apologise for rambling - but not for why. This probably doesn't contribute much to the overall debate of things, but I couldn't help but write it anyway.
     
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  6. MLP

    MLP Kilobyte Poster

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    OK, purely Anecdotal stuff here, but might be interesting none the less.

    I am not a practising Christian, or even a believer as such. I was brought up in home where religion was not really an option. However, recently I've been giving the whole spirituality thing a lot of thought and am exploring this to the best of my abilities. I'm currently reading through the Bible, and reading what I can about Christianity. I may also look at a few other belief systems, such as Buddhism, etc, and will make up my own mind in time. That said, Christianity just seems to feel sort of right, but I'm yet to be fully convinced.

    I am aware of how religion can and is used as a tool to control minds, do evil etc, but I've also seen great acts of kindness and compassion come from people of belief. I lost my Mother when I was young, and the local catholic church did a lot for my Dad, Me and my Brothers, despite my Dads low opinion of Church. They basically made sure he was looked after in a practical way, I.e. could look after the house, and cook for us, as well as offering him a means of getting the emotional support he needed, and could meet with other widowed parents.

    Maria
     
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  7. m3lt

    m3lt Byte Poster

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    I think if you are interested in viewing some interesting points of view, you can check these videos:

    1 - The root of all evil: Part 1
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4321574955310561251&hl=en

    2 - The root of all evil: Part 2
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7619161192220036050&hl=en

    3 - The enemies of reason: Part 1
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7218293233140975017&hl=en

    4 - The enemies of reason: Part 2
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4720837385783230047&hl=en

    Feedback is apreciated.
     
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  8. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    I think that for all the love you purport to have, you certainly enjoy grinding your axe.
     
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  9. m3lt

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    I am not being sarcastic, I would really like to hear what you have to say after seeing those videos and how those things apply to you/others here.
     
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  10. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    Its really not worth continuing this discussion. You have made no valid response to any of the points either myself or BM have put - you seem to think thar repeating your one and only point (you don't believe in religion) is good enough to win an argument. It isn't - but if that makes you feel better about yourself, then more power to you.

    Linking to videos which basically are a rehash of everything you said yourself earlier isn't remotely constructive, and certainly doesn't make you seem more intelligent. Its the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting.
     
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  11. m3lt

    m3lt Byte Poster

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    Heb 11:1 - "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

    What can I say that will make you think otherwise, when you go into "faith mode" ?

    I can just present you with what I have experienced and when I linked the videos I was just showing you by a more eloquent and articulate person, what I also think.

    You are free to see and free to skip it. :D
     
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  12. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    I think that human history is full of bloodshed for political, socialogical, scientific, fearful, racist, desperate, educational, medical, financial, geographical, emotional and yes, religious reasons.

    How many people are killed nowadays for religious reasons when compared to, say, common thievery or drunken brawling or a stolen car?

    It just gets more press, that's all.


    Lets take this back to an IT theme.
    BM and others like him have dedicated a lot of time and effort to their pursuit of religion, and they are far more informed than you are. You can't win an argument against someone who has a passionate belief in what they do by being vague.

    Imagine I am an expert on MS Internet Explorer. It's my life's work. I chose it, I love it. I've written books about it and I meet with friends about it.

    You, on the other hand are a FireFox user. You don't know why it's better, someone told you once or you read somewhere that MS were evil. You don't know technically why, because people who are passionate about something generally know more about it than those who are indifferent or just generally 'against' something without knowing why.

    I like to think of myself as on the fence, but I've seen far stronger arguments on this thread from those that are believers than from those that aren't.
     
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  13. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    BTW, I'm not comparing IE to Christianity.
    Let's not even go THERE...

    :blink
     
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  14. dmarsh
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    dmarsh Petabyte Poster

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    Ok so if I'm the worlds foremost expert on scientology, does it do me or the world any good ? :D

    Does it mean I am better qualified to describe humanity or other religions or the world around us ? Does it even make me qualified to describe scientology in an objective fashion ?

    Theologians offer severely biased analysis, therefore their analysis is no better than anybody elses. Various forms of Religious studies, Philosophy, Sociology, History, and Anthropology offer more promising means of analysis.
     
  15. m3lt

    m3lt Byte Poster

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    Hmm...

    Both have million of users/followers.
    Both organisations have millions of $$$.

    I see a consipiracy forming :borgsmile
     
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  16. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    Have you even READ my previous posts? If you had you'd realise that, as a non-religious person I'm not likely to go into 'faith mode'...

    You've made the same mistake every 'committed' atheist I've ever met makes when I discuss religion with them - their eyes glaze over and they get as fervent as any religious nutnut I've ever met and they start spitting blood about religion... before I have to quietly remind them that I am NOT religious - I just don't think people should be ridiculed for their beliefs.
     
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  17. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    No, m3lt, you really don't want to hear what I (or anyone who disagrees with you) have to say. You simply want to "prove us wrong". You've made that more than clear with your responses.

    Simply provide proof that God doesn't exist. But, see, you can't provide that any more than I can provide proof that God does exist.

    The key to belief is faith; if you don't have it, I can't give it to you. So it's pointless for me to try to "make you think otherwise", as you put it. I can tell you what I believe, but I can't MAKE you (or anybody else, for that matter) believe anything... nor can you make us believe - or stop believing - in something. If your logic is sound, you should simply state what you believe, and then allow people to make their own decisions.

    Of course, if your logic isn't sound, you can always go back to name calling and belittling people for their beliefs... :rolleyes:
     
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  18. Gingerdave

    Gingerdave Megabyte Poster

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    Damn, being on a course all day and I miss the fun.

    Here is what I believe, there is something somewhere, it matters to me not a jot if you call it God, Allah, bob, or a fish, as, heretically in the Catholic church, I think they are all the same thing, a way of explaining what we don't know and defining a place in the universal order, which as mentioned previously is a biological imperative in all "pack" animals.

    m3lt.

    I am sorry for your experiences, but your subjective views colour what is being discussed, and so the way you are putting your points across doesn’t sound like atheism but more like petulance and it has to be right because how else do you explain all the evil.

    But you do raise valid points about the hypocrisy of some practitioners of religion. You say that people are beaten, killed, fed to the inquisition and blow themselves up in the name of religion. Simple answer: they don’t. All of the above use religion as an excuse to behave as they wish to. If you had read Qur'an you would know that it strictly forbids killing of any kind, at all, but people ignore that for the sections that read along the lines of and acting in a way to defeat the Great Satan will send you to paradise. It is Religious fanaticism pure and simple and it is always a corruption of the ideals of said religion to take away the psychological burden of doing horrible things you want to do, because it is not you doing it, "it's God's will"

    Wherever organised religion is involved there will always be some extremists who try to subvert the belief structure to meet there own agenda. However this is not strictly a phenomena related to religion - look at all of the violence associated with football, there is the observance of holy days (matches) where people go to worship (home games) and make pilgrimages across many miles (away games) dressed in the armour of their belief (club colours) who will then do battle with unbelievers (the other teams supporters) to prove the voracity of their faith (support)

    How is that different from the examples of "bad religion"?

    Now a lot of that sounds very negative, and to a large extent it is, but as an indictment of the subversion of organised religion in order to meet its objectives. GBL mentioned that religion can is used as a form of control and while I disagree with 'is' I do agree with 'can'. History is littered with examples of extremists subverting and controlling the faithful by calling it gods work, or by using an ideal as a the driving force - hence the holocaust - you do not conform to this ideal which we have bought into hence you will be dealt with.

    And as for the educated bit I am going to call that a bad choice of words on your behalf, education and belief are not diametrically opposed, that is only put forward by people who 'believe':biggrin in the value of science above all else.

    Ok end rant.

    Getting back to the original question do I believe in an afterlife? Probably not in the strictest sense, it’s not a leap of faith or intelligence I can make. I do believe that there is a balance to life, an equilibrium that if we are lucky enough to find is spot on. Some find this balance through religion - groovy. Some find it through science - equally cool but however you find it I hope you enjoy it.

    And as it may mena something to some of you, I was raised a Cathloic, have studied Chrstianity to A levels doing Religious studies, Theology and Philosphy. I have read books on different religions had long discussions with people of various faiths as well as pure scienists and the fence straddlers all in an effort to find that missing piece, something that other people clearly have in the form of their faith. I haven't found it yet - this is not an a critism of religion but of me - so I have to keep looking.

    EDIT
    ZX sorry I got somewhat side tracked there - sorry to hear about your loss and I hope you find the peace you are seeking.

    Second Edit - so it makes some damn gramtical sense!
     
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  19. kevicho

    kevicho Gigabyte Poster

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    With regards the topic, if reincarnation is what awaits us, what would people like to come back as?

    Id go with some sort of animal such as a cat, sleep all day, out all night, fed cleaned and watered without having to repay it (some cats are so aloof).
     
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  20. m3lt

    m3lt Byte Poster

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    I am sorry if it sound belittling to you or Zebulebu...

    But I just happened to have very very bad experiences with religious people. Maybe that made me grow fond of some sort of extremist thoughts! :blink

    Anyways, about the feedback thing the big difference is that scientifically fact and fiction are filtered through processes and procedures that aim to disprove it.
    Only by trying to disprove what is already assumed is that science itself can advance, and when I asked of plausible explanations to why we believe the way we believe, was because those same beliefs can be put to test, most noticeably the part that "reproduces" the findings.

    The simple fact that you can explain, then show and then reproduce again anything that you advocate is praiseworthy.

    That is why we will never see a miracle of limb growing.
     
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