advice needed?! I don't want to be ripped off

Discussion in 'Training & Development' started by danielbh, Jan 12, 2006.

  1. Muir

    Muir Bit Poster

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    I agree with all this advice, I'm currently doing a MCDBA course through computeach I have two years to do it and I have about 5 years experience of working with different RDBMS. I feel with my background I can get through the materials in time whilst retaining the knowledge but only just, I am currently progressing well but at the minute I have a lot of reading to do and this is slowing me down.

    12 week’s to do that lot, no way. Save your money and learn the stuff yourself that way you can set your own place, no stress of impending deadlines and at the end a nice big bit of satisfaction knowing that you’ve achieved it all yourself and you’ll probably know what it is that you’ve learnt. Oh and of cost a hell of a lot more money.
     
    Certifications: Degree, HND, MCP (305, 306, 229)
    WIP: MCDBA
  2. Bluerinse
    Honorary Member

    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

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    From their FAQs...

    Anyone here earning money in that scale in the UK apart from Phoenix? I very much doubt it!!
     
    Certifications: C&G Electronics - MCSA (W2K) MCSE (W2K)
  3. michael78

    michael78 Terabyte Poster

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    Thats why I really can't stand these conmen. They fill people with utter [email protected] about time it takes todo these exams which can only be acheived by the exam writers themselves, they offer courses that give you 5 certs when you should only do one at a time, and they lie about expected salary, as bluerinse points out it's a load of crap. I love these adverts on a Thursday in the job section of my local paper saying you can earn £600 per week in IT if you train with us and part with £5k again complete lies.

    I wish they would be honest and not prey on people instead of screwing them. Well thats my rant over...:D
     
    Certifications: A+ | Network+ | Security+ | MCP | MCDST | MCTS: Hyper-V | MCTS: AD | MCTS: Exchange 2007 | MCTS: Windows 7 | MCSA: 2003 | ITIL Foundation v3 | CCA: Xenapp 5.0 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator on Windows 7 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Support Technician on Windows 7
    WIP: Online SAN Overview, VCP in December 2011
  4. sebastian65654

    sebastian65654 Bit Poster

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    The problem is that, every man and his dog knows the basic by now, especially if you have been living in western country. I am not against getting A+ certification, but I believe its better not spend too much money, time, and resources on A+, because there are not many jobs out there that require or ask you to have A+, unless you want work for your local PC shop.

    Just do a search on www.monster.co.uk or any other related website and put word A+ or N+ in search engine and see how many jobs you get and then you refine your search to MCP and CCNA and see the difference for yourself, that’s why I say its not going to play a big role when you looking for a job.
     
  5. michael78

    michael78 Terabyte Poster

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    Sebastian, I think your missing the point it's not whether or not an employer requires you to have an A+ or not it's that in doing it it shows that you have a good foundation in being capable of doing the job and I think that in having the cert shows employers that. I would also disagree that people know the basics, in fact most people don't know the inside of a PC or what the different parts are and do.
     
    Certifications: A+ | Network+ | Security+ | MCP | MCDST | MCTS: Hyper-V | MCTS: AD | MCTS: Exchange 2007 | MCTS: Windows 7 | MCSA: 2003 | ITIL Foundation v3 | CCA: Xenapp 5.0 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator on Windows 7 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Support Technician on Windows 7
    WIP: Online SAN Overview, VCP in December 2011
  6. danielbh

    danielbh Bit Poster

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    Thank you there is a lot of honest, good advice form peolple. The only reason I considered this training from justIT is because of their 'job guarantee' - they do agree to pay back £500 a month 3 months after you finish the course if you don't find a job that pays at least 16k. I don't know yet weather this means after 12 weeks or after you pass all the exams. If it is the later I will say no for sure - but £500 per month shouldn't be sniffed at either? they also recommend an unpaid job placement of 6-8 weeks to get expereince. I will let you know the outcome of all this after I get more details in person. I am considering this route as I have tried for a couple of entry level jobs and not had even a reply for my efforts.
     
  7. michael78

    michael78 Terabyte Poster

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    Daniel, one thing to consider is that in order to qualify for the placement guarantee you will probably have to pass all the exams or they will void that guarantee. Seeing that there is a hell of a lot of things to pass in the time I would cover all your bases if your still going to go ahead with the course. I personally thing they do the guarantee because they know that 95% of people won't pass everything.
     
    Certifications: A+ | Network+ | Security+ | MCP | MCDST | MCTS: Hyper-V | MCTS: AD | MCTS: Exchange 2007 | MCTS: Windows 7 | MCSA: 2003 | ITIL Foundation v3 | CCA: Xenapp 5.0 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator on Windows 7 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Support Technician on Windows 7
    WIP: Online SAN Overview, VCP in December 2011
  8. Clyde

    Clyde Megabyte Poster

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    sebastian is deluded if he thinks A+ is irrelevant.

    Employers may not put it down as a prerequisite, but if he thinks that for any given job, if there's 2 equally qualified guys in the running that A+ wouldnt count if one had it and the other didnt, he's sadly mistaken.

    Recruiters also will see it and be likelier to consider the applicant as its a way for them to define the skillset of the applicant...

    go for it, not only is A+ a lifetime cert, it has definite value, and some roles definitely require it. Besides, whats wrong with working for a local computer shop ?
     
    Certifications: A+, Network+, Security+, MCSA, MCSE
    WIP: MCITP
  9. danielbh

    danielbh Bit Poster

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    Slypie,
    I was on urban17.net forum and this was posted about justIT:

    "I'm remote 2nd / 3rd line support assistant manager at London's leading outsourcing company for SMEs. If that makes any sense. It's a good job, and have worked my way up to it in a year. Being promoted again soon

    To be honest I just used Just IT to skip a few rungs on the career ladder, you could work your way up, I was just lazy. Their interview skills courses and CV analysis was very good, nice to have a network of people to help you through the job application process; however it is very expensive. I think Just IT are the best of the bunch though.

    They guarantee a job if you pass all exams - or your course money back at the rate of a grand a month until you get employed, or your course money is all paid back."

    It is slightly suspect coz it's actually paid back at £500 per month. somtimes I wonder wheather these companies have people posing as inocent trainees on forums to trick people into training!
     
  10. MarkN

    MarkN Nibble Poster

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    I agree with one of the previous posts, you have to start with the fundamentals, everything is built on good foundations.

    I started out working with real time computers in the forces in 1989 and then diversified into what we now call IT in the early 90's. I did city and guilds, OND and then a HNC in Electronics and each time built on my previous knowledge to my benefit. Once I'd shifted from real time computing (we fault found computers down to component level e.g individual capacitors, resistors etc) into server based work I did Microsoft, Novell, Citrix and HP certifications to give myself that foundation knowledge I needed.My advice to anyone would be start with the basics, i.e how a computer works, and work up from there. A few years ago I had a few guys in my team to train, they were new to the industry but all shared a desire to get on, I put them all through the A+ and then an MCP in Server and Workstation (NT4! ). They all passed, they could all apply their knowledge in the real world and they have since done very well for themselves. Look at other professional jobs ie lawyers, doctors etc etc you always start with the basics and develop from there. You also need sound interpersonal skills and commercial awareness but that is another story!
     
    Certifications: MCSE NT4\W2K,CNE,CCEA,ASE
    WIP: CCNA
  11. sebastian65654

    sebastian65654 Bit Poster

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  12. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    Well, Daniel, I see you asked for advice but then are ignoring what everyone told you. You tried to find work in a couple of places, got turned down, so you're wanting the easy way out--the guarantee of a job.

    So you really think you can finish all those certs, and really understand on a hands-on level what you are going to be learning? Do you really think you can grasp in 12 weeks what it took the rest of us years to learn? If so you must be one of the people with an IQ in the 200+ range. If you don't have that kind of IQ you're going to be a long time paying back that loan while you work at a local McDonalds or something like it, and be still studying if you don't give up on IT altogether.

    Sure there are people who passed those exams in that amount of time, but, and it's a big but, if they didn't have years of experience in IT they passed their certs but still didn't know enough to keep a job.

    My advice to you is consider whether you want a certification or knowledge. A cert might possibly, and it's a slim possibility, get you a job, but without knowledge you will never, and that's a certainty, hold the job because you will not be qualified to do the work.

    If you want knowledge, well, that's another story. Knowledge will take longer to acquire. But, when you do get a job you will keep it because you will be qualified to do the work.

    Knowledge doesn't come overnight, so to speak. You can braindump your way through a cert overnight, but you will not gain knowledge that way. You will be just as ignorant about how to do the work after spending your money as you are right now.
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, A+
    WIP: LPIC 1
  13. danielbh

    danielbh Bit Poster

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    to freeloder

    I am certainluy not ignoring the advice people are giving! You think I want to spend £5000 of my own hard earned money on a whim- why do you think I'm asking for advice? I realise more than anybody being a professional musician having been training for all my life and with two degrees that you can't just expect to aquire expereince overnight. However you can't just write to an employer without any certs and say "well I've got loads of experience of fiddling around at home putting in hard disks and using system restore
     
  14. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    How little you remember of your own words. You recommended not doing the A+ and going straight to 70-270 and a CCNA. Both of these certs have a necessary foundation of knowledge that is taught in the A+. Especially the the XP cert. I've watched people who thought they could bypass the low level certs and just jump into the more advanced ones. They are lost. They don't know which end is up because they don't know anything about the basic computer to begin with.

    Daniel has said he has no knowledge of computers.... And you advise him to jump into MCSE level certs and a CCNA.

    That's very poor advice. You have either been doing this for so long you've forgotten how gradually you built up your knowledge base, or you just plain don't know what you're talking about.
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, A+
    WIP: LPIC 1
  15. michael78

    michael78 Terabyte Poster

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    Daniel, my point is proven on the guarantee, they guarantee a job if you pass all the exams. I do think that they bundle all of these certs not because they are being helpful but they bundle too many so that most people don't pass them all and then they don't need to find you a job. 12 weeks is a disgrace for them to say they are achievable. Training providers like this really do [email protected] me off.

    I sympathise with people wanting to get their foot into IT, but forum's like this are worth 10 training providers like them and we are free...:biggrin
     
    Certifications: A+ | Network+ | Security+ | MCP | MCDST | MCTS: Hyper-V | MCTS: AD | MCTS: Exchange 2007 | MCTS: Windows 7 | MCSA: 2003 | ITIL Foundation v3 | CCA: Xenapp 5.0 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator on Windows 7 | MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Support Technician on Windows 7
    WIP: Online SAN Overview, VCP in December 2011
  16. danielbh

    danielbh Bit Poster

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    To Freeloader
    If you would have read all the posts you will see that I myself think it is very unrealistic to pass these complicated exams in 12-14 weeks as just IT claim, so you are wrong in what you say. JustIT allow you up to 18 months to pass the exams which is a more realistic time frame in my view. You are able to retake the course free. Remember I only want an entry-level job
     
  17. Muir

    Muir Bit Poster

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    daniel if I was you I would avoid this like anything. You said 18 months to complete all the courses are you going to do them in your spare time or full time? What if you get stuck on a particularly subject and it takes you longer than expected? Do you really think you will do the qualifications justice by studying the subject matter in such a short time? Do you think you will retain the knowledge? Do you think having these qualifications will ensure that you know the topic you’re studying?

    I really would advise you to stay clear, I’ve seen a lot of people go down this route to end up extremely disappointed and I hope that you will not make the same mistake. If you really want the certifications study hard on your own, you’ll save a lot more money, if you’re struggling look for local tutors or ask the guys on this forum, there is an enormous wealth of knowledge contained in these pages and it’s absolutely free.
     
    Certifications: Degree, HND, MCP (305, 306, 229)
    WIP: MCDBA
  18. Arroryn
    Honorary Member

    Arroryn we're all dooooooomed

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    Just a couple of points to throw into the...errr...thread.

    1) I'd be interested to know why, if they allow 18 months for you to pass the Certs, they only offer 12 weeks of training? Is this followed up with revision courses, support tutoring, and so forth?

    If they are partners with any of these companies, it can be checked out, and I recommend you do so.

    It states several times that they are affiliated with 'blue chip' employees. If I was trying to encourage a job guarantee, then I'd ask who the companies were. They guarantee a job between 16 and 24K. Make sure that this does not entail any of the following:

    That you have to take a job in London.

    That the job is not contract, or temporary.
    The only way I can see a company guaranteeing jobs is through an agency of some kind.

    Also, at no point on the CCNA module does it mention practical experience. Doing a CCNA without practical experience is practically suicidal.

    What I can see happening is this:
    1) Joe passes his JustIT courses.
    2) They get him a temp job.
    3) The courses/exams have been rushed. Even 18 months is a push for this amount of knowledge.
    4) 'Joe Bloggs' didn't have practical training, can't remember all the details and has no definite work experience.
    5) Joe gets sacked because he can't do the job.

    Just MO.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, 70-410, 70-411
    WIP: Modern Languages BA
  19. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    Daniel,

    You need hands-on to get anything out of any IT study. All the money you spend with this company will not get you enough hands-on study to amount to anything.

    Your money will be much better spent building yourself a lab, buying the needed/relevant books, and then studying your butt off. That's how most of us have gotten our certifications. That's how we learned.

    You can build yourself one heck of a good lab, buy a ton of books, and have money left over for what you're going to spend with the "training" provider.

    As was already asked, are you going to do this full-time or part-time, study that is? If you think you're going to do this part-time while working a full-time job to support yourself and finish this in 18 months, good luck. 18 months might be a minimum to pass all those exams if you do it full-time and have a very good lab to work in at home. So, plan on adding at least 20% to 50% onto the cost of your course for your home lab and additional study materials, because they will be a necessity.

    Let's take a look at their network program. They have you "learning" Linux in 2 weeks. That's a laugh. I've been working with Linux for more than a year and I'm just barely scratching the surface. In 2 weeks you won't know enough about Linux to impress anyone, and that includes yourself. Ask around on this site as to how many people have been able to pick up Linux in 2 weeks and see what kind of response you get.

    They have you completing a CCNA in 3 weeks. There's another laugh. You, being a complete newbie, will not only have to learn the fundamentals of networking you will have to learn how Cisco does networking, learn the IOS, several routing protocols, how routers work, how switches work, etc... in 3 weeks. You better be a genius at computing is all I can say. I have a CCNA and I spent spent months getting mine, and I'd been studying networking on my own for quite a while. I knew how TCP/IP worked before I started my CCNA. Do you? I understood how computers communicated before I started my CCNA. All I needed to learn was the routing protocols and the CCNA IOS. Do you? You're going to be doing this in a fraction of the time I took to learn less. Are you a computer genius?

    They tell you are going to be able to install, monitor, and troubleshoot XP and Server 2003 in a matter of 3 weeks. LOL. It took me a couple of years to cover all this, and I'm still learning how to troubleshoot effectively. That kind of knowledge doesn't come through cramming, and that's what you will be doing.

    I started studying in October of 2002 and finished my certifications in December of 2004 if my memory servers me right. But, I worked with 2000 Pro and 2000 Server, and SQL Server 100+ hours a week for a year and half before I started studying and I studied anywhere from 8 - 14 hours a day, 6 days a week, for the entire time I worked on my certifications. I also have a decent lab to work with.

    I still don't have a Linux cert and I've been using Linux on a daily basis for a year and half. I've been studying it pretty intensively too. I picked one of the hardest distro's there is to learn and worked my way through it until I'm beginning to get competent with it. I can assure you it didn't happen in 2 or 3 weeks. It's taken more than a year and there is still more that I don't know about Debian than there is I do know about it.

    I can tell from your replies that you think I'm being harsh. I'm not. I'm trying to give you some sense of reality as to what you're up against. These "training providers" will tell you anything to get your money. They will promise you the moon but not deliver on it.

    One last thing. You're only 19, I believe. Your entire future lies in front of you. If it is successful or not depends on what kind of foundation you set down now. Take your time and do it right. Spend the time it takes to really learn. Lay a solid foundation for your career. Take it from someone more than twice your age who has "been there and done that". Do it right the first time. You will never regret it. Do it wrong the first time and you'll always regret it.
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, A+
    WIP: LPIC 1
  20. arisen

    arisen Byte Poster

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    Excellent post Freddy.
     
    Certifications: BEng, PRINCE2, ITIL, Net+
    WIP: MSc, Linux+ 2009, RHCE

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