Stewing over Certs

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Whilst browsing some of the topics in the employment section I got thinking about people studying and passing certifications to GET INTO IT, as opposed to their original purpose, which was to back up experience with some paper.

Now, we all know getting the MCSE without any experience is never going to work, but what about the MCDST and the like, I mean Microsoft states it them selves that people studying the MCDST should;

My concern is that, have entry level certifications turned into effectively a GCSE or A Level situation where you study for them not because your in the industry but because it's a way into the industry? is this the right way it should be done? if not, what alternative is there to get people into IT careers? and even though they are entry level, how many are actually gaining any REAL knowledge of IT and not just studying to pass a test ( and by that I don't mean braindumping).

 

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Tough one.

I suppose that there are a lot of people out there with a proven track record and bags of experience who don't actually need a cert.

I think the whole issue has become confused by employers asking for 'an MCSE' just to thin out the market without really knowing what it's all about. 'Wanted - expert in administering and configuring BES and handheld devices, must hold MCSE'. Dunno.

Then there are the TPs flapping about how you can't work in IT unless you have a cert. And added into the fray, the academic 'cert collectors' with little or no real world experience.

It's all a big pudding really.

My personal feeling, from being a member of CF for several years is that (if you include those who post once and then vanish) is that it feels that there are more people studing certs in order to get into IT than there are IT pros studying to consolodate their current knowledge and skills.

What do others think?

 

Never heard of these, who do you mean exactly ?

Academics are generally too busy getting Masters or Doctorates, publishing papers or lecturing, to bother with certs in most cases. Also in many cases academics collaborate with industry or have in the past worked in industry.

 

What I mean by that is people who, rather than have learned 'on the job' with a bit of study, simply have the ability to read and learn and are able to study for and pass certification exams without having the required experience.

I'm not talking braindumpers, just people who treat certs as one would do an academic subject.

 

In all the interviews I have ever been for have they have never heard of the A+ and N+ so although these are good certs and will help you alot when you are working in your job will they help you get a job I expect not.

 

Unfortunately it's not always about the curriculum.
Some people just hear words that they know like 'Microsoft' or 'Cisco' and anything else is just bunk.

 

Yeah thats what i think, so what would you recommend people to do A+ and N+ if they are struggling to get in to IT? as it probably wont actaully help them get the job.

 

Do GCSE's or A-levels get you a job ? No but they teach you useful core skills.

The best entry level certifications should teach core skills, in fact I think nearly all certs should focus mainly on core skills.

Unfortunately as much as I'd like to live in a meritocracy, we live in a real world, with marketing, brands, big business, recruiters, commissions, and all sorts of things that get in the way.

Ultimately the hiring manager should be responsible for the job advertisements content, recruiters will only ever learn the bare minimum to be able to blag and earn their commission. However not having an A+ does not necessarily mean you don't know computer architecture or technical support, many people take GNVQ's, BTECS, Apprenticeships, Degrees, or are self taught, soon we will also have 'the Diploma', if anything maybe we have had too many initiatives ?

Anyone that doesn't have core skills shouldn't really be able to enter, let alone last long in the industry, unfortunately this doesn't always seem to be the case.

 

I see what you are saying but GCSE's and A-levels I think do help you get a job alot of jobs require A levels as a requirement for the job. I expect if 5 people applied for a trainee IT job the one with no GCSE's would probably not get the job.

 

Recruiters and Hiring managers look for 'filtering criteria' to limit their candidate search, they are not going to do some sort of X-factor style search. The reality of this is that the filtering criteria can be quite arbitary, they exist primarilly to make the recruiters job easier, not necessarilly to find the best candidate, in fact its quite likely that many good candidates will get lost in the process.

Requiring certs can be just as bad as mentioned with people needing MCSE for helpdesk, also many of the best people in the industry have no certifications whatsoever.

 

I'm doing the entry level certs because:
1) Maybe it might be to my advantage job hunting. I think it shows commitment to gaining an IT job and I've not applied on a whim, I have most of the basics and enough aptitude for the subject to learn more. . Maybe all employers don't see it that way but some will, and that gives me a little bit of an advantage over someone who doesn't have any certs or experience.
2) When/if I get a job in IT support, I'll be able to hit the ground running and hopefully live up to my standards as well as my employers expectations.

Unfortunately with the state of the job market it may take a while to get a job, but I'll have to keep studying or lose what I've already gained. Onwards and ...erm... sideways.

 

Well, that's why I recommend the A+ and Network+ before the MCDST. Hopefully they'll be able to get a job before or after the A+, then work for a while before the Network+ and MCDST.

That said, those skills are what entry-level techs need to know, so it's reasonable for them to take exams that cover those technologies.

It might seem like we're giving advice that contradicts what we typically say. However, in my opinion, it's not at all. When we say that you need server admin experience before you pursue the MCSA/MCSE, techs can get into a lower-level job and eventually start getting that server admin experience even before they hold a "server admin" title. But help desk and desktop support are entry-level jobs. There's no way to get real-world business IT experience before holding those job titles because those jobs are at the bottom of the IT career ladder. Most people would consider a PC tech job at a place like Best Buy/Geek Squad would be an entry-level job... but they require the A+, I believe. Where do you start out, if not at places like these??

Plus, when starting out, you need every advantage you can get to set yourself from the rest of the competition who also don't have experience. Entry-level certifications are a great way to do that.

 

They do indeed state the above. However, although I agree with their MCSA/MCSE assessment (because I think that people DO need 6-12+ months of server admin experience before pursuing them), I don't agree with Microsoft's assessment that you need 6 months of experience before pursuing the MCDST.

So, why do I believe that? Well, based on what is tested on the exam, I think that that's what entry-level techs need to know to be able to perform well in an entry-level IT job (just like I think that the MCSA objectives test on things that they need to know to be able to perform well in a server admin job).

Keep in mind what I mentioned in my post above... it's possible to do light server administration before getting a job as a server administrator. It's not very possible to do "light desktop support administration" (other than "I fixed my mom's computer") before getting a job as an entry-level tech.

 

The thing is... how do you know it "probably won't actually help them get the job"? Until I hear an employer say, "Yeah, I see they have the A+ - I don't care about that," I'm gonna continue to recommend it. It certainly can't hurt. Like Soundian mentioned, it shows a degree of commitment that your competition may not have, even if the employer hasn't heard of the A+. If they're worth their salt, they'll find out what the A+ is. If not, what have you lost by pursuing it? Nothing, in my opinion.

 

I think this is a difficult one to answer, and I can only offer my own personal slant.

When I started in IT, I did not have any certifications, however I did put on my CV studying towards MCDST.

From there on in, I have done things the opposite way round to the general advice given here. Which is certs first then real world experience.

This has not been through choice, when I was at the MCSA level, that was about appropriate for my level at the time. However the MCSE carrot was waived infront of me, with more wonga if I pass.

Of course, went for an sat the exams, was I using those skills in the real world, some but not many,

Since then I progressed into 3rd Line and I use the MCSE skills daily, whether that be looking at Server issues or Exchange problems.

My current employeer likes you to do Certs first before you are let loose on the equipment, this was especially the case before they let me reak havoc on Cisco PIX's & Routers.

So in answer to the question, I think that the MCDST is an entry level cert and should be studied for before you get into IT. It's such a competitive job market out there and as Tesco say 'every little helps!'.

AS if for most employeers, if they are looking at two CV's for a 1st Line job, both with no experience, but one of them had the MCDST, I would think, fair play to them getting a certification, shows keeness, lets give them an interview.

However, I would emphasis that don't go to far, lets say your in 1st Line Support and want to get into 2nd Line Support, I don't think there is much harm shooting for the MCSA as you would most likley be doing some Server work, but the MCSE would be a no no until you hit 2nd Line.

I think I have been infected by Miss A's ramblings

 

I got the A+ and N+ before i got my first job but in all the interviews i had and some were for very large companies none had ever heard of the A+ and N+ it did not do anything negative to my chances of a job but i do not think it helped a great deal either but when you mention a Microsoft cert they all know what they are.