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Latest TC promising the moon

Discussion in 'Training & Development' started by UKDarkstar, Aug 12, 2008.

  1. UKDarkstar
    Honorary Member

    UKDarkstar Terabyte Poster

    Spotted an ad for these people on TV last night :


    Usual story, retrain and earn you millions. One guy did - he was so successful he's now a Company Director.

    Whoopee if you'll forgive my sarcasm :twisted:
    Certifications: BA (Hons), MBCS, CITP, MInstLM, ITIL v3 Fdn, PTLLS, CELTA
    WIP: CMALT (about to submit), DTLLS (on hold until 2012)
  2. NightWalker

    NightWalker Gigabyte Poster

    Their site says you can fast track in to IT with an MCSA and earn £30k a year.

    Man, I must be doing something wrong, I have an MCSA:M and three years experience and I am not on £30k :blink
    Certifications: A+, Network+, MCP, MCSA:M 2003, ITIL v3 Foundation
  3. Arroryn
    Honorary Member

    Arroryn we're all dooooooomed

    Sorry to come off as a bit brash but...

    1. Joskos isn't a 'new' TP. They've been around for a while, and quite a few people who have come through the registration doors of CF have been disuaded to go on their courses following our advice.

    2. TPs are running a business. What they're doing is called advertising. Or marketing. Sure, it appears that they're trying to dupe people, but anyone with a modicum of common sense would research their pathetic claims before gumming their way to get on a course that promises the earth.

    I'm not saying that what they do is right, but the constant TP bashing on hear really... grr... I love that people come to CF to question the whys and wherefores of training providers, and we guide them in the correct direction, which is invariably self study or college-based learning if they feel they need the nudge along. But at the end of the day, if someone is gullible enough to throw £4K at a company without researching the industry they're getting in to, then they don't even deserve to be in IT (one of the top 10 rules is 'use Google' I mean, come on, it's not difficult to gather constructive feedback about these firms).

    Joskos are running a business, using targeted advertising, end of.

    It's not the companies that are to blame, it's the people that buy the products. If people did their research, the take up would hopefully drop to such a point that, with all the range of TPs out there, they'd start struggling for business and fade away. Alack and alas, that's probably a pipe dream, but nevertheless, it's a nice thought.

    £4K (or whatever they charge) is a lot of money to throw at a fairy story without finding out some of the plot. You wouldn't buy a car without test driving it and thoroughly researching it. So why abuse your career and livelihood in the same way?

    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, 70-410, 70-411
    WIP: Modern Languages BA
  4. dmarsh

    dmarsh Terabyte Poster

    If you look at the less reputable training compaines there is actually precious little facts actually on the site, you have to ring or email, and then you get the hard sell...

    Its all well and good blaming individuals but these companies spend a lot of time and marketing dollars figuring out how to target their prey...
  5. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

    I agree with Arroryn actually. Mostly at least. TP's are not the inherent evil they are often portrayed here on CF. They are a business out to make money. Sure, some of their practices arent great, or representative, but they want your money.

    Questioning the available methods is great, and should be actively encouraged, but TP's are a valid and viable solution to the training problem. They are not the devil incarnate.
    Certifications: ITIL Foundation; MCTS: Visual Studio Team Foundation Server 2010, Administration
    WIP: None at present
  6. NightWalker

    NightWalker Gigabyte Poster

    The claims they make are completely unrealistic. If people looking to get in to IT do their research they are going to need websites where people talk about the bold claims made by training companies and offer opinions on such claims. The researcher can then make up his/her own mind. Taking a sarcastic look at these unrealistic claims is helping these folks make a decision, there will be many people who have posted about how good a TP they went with was. It all balances out in the end. Just because a training company needs to find new recruits, making up 'facts' that are well outside what will likely happen to the student in reality is not right.
    Certifications: A+, Network+, MCP, MCSA:M 2003, ITIL v3 Foundation
  7. Arroryn
    Honorary Member

    Arroryn we're all dooooooomed

    If they quote the facts as a form of advertising, I don't think they're legally allowed to 'make them up'.

    The 'figures' in general do agree with what the TPs quote - it's the enhanced career prospects they use to play people, not the wages per se.

    For example - you study an MCSE, MCSEs do *this* particular job, the average wage for *this* particular job is £XXK per year - ergo, do an MCSE with us and you'll earn this much money when you certify.

    THAT's where people need to come to CF and find the truth - that an MCSE with no experience makes you as employable as a whale omlette. That's where researching the industry you are going to work in is important. And I'm sorry, but if you *love* IT that much, and you plan on spending a good chunk of your life pursuing it as a career, you should pay it the decent service of doing a little research first.

    Computer Weekly magazine a month or so ago published "average industry salaries" citing that the "average wage" for a first line support technician is £22K (or thereabouts). Eh? The trouble in these surveys is when they don't take in the 'North/South divide' or differences in pay for different industries. But TPs can use these surveys as valid references. It's all fuel to the fire, unfortunately.

    EDIT: for interesting reading, I recommend you take a look at the Salary Survey 2008 from the Register http://whitepapers.theregister.co.uk/paper/view/411/theregistersalarysurvey.pdf it reviews salaries, working environments, salaries compared between those with certs and those without... a good insight into the current industry wage climate

    EDIT EDIT: apparently one of the 'worst' working environments is in the legal sector. I'd have to disagree with that. Surveys will not always be as they appear for all people... they never could be. But they can be referenced as 'official documents' and will be abused both by TPs and by agencies looking to pigeon hole people into jobs.
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, 70-410, 70-411
    WIP: Modern Languages BA
  8. dmarsh

    dmarsh Terabyte Poster

    Those looking for certs as a quick fix would do well to read the section titled 'Qualifications Impact'....
  9. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

    The thing I do not like is the fact that these general salary survey's are answered by everyone, entry level to CEO's (plus whose to say that people are answering these surveys false answers). Plus these surveys can be answered from people all over the world. The answer is then calculated and shown to someone who wants to enter the IT field, rightly or wrongly.

    Now whose to blame, the training companies that advertise these figures (in large bold letters) to lure prospective students or adults who do not read the small print and double check infomation given?

    Added to what Arroryn said, what about upper managers who have worked their way up who have these qual's/certs?

    Training companies/Training Providers aren't evil, they provide a service for those that do not want/like to self study. Added to that there are some certifications that require you to attend a course, VMWare certifications for example. People just have to be a bit more careful and considerate when it comes to making decisions.


    p.s. why don't we start a CF average salary here for 2008, no job titles, just salary and see what we come up with :)
    Certifications: CITP, PGDip, BSc, HNC, LCGI, PTLLS, MCT, MCITP, MCTS, MCSE, MCSA:M, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, MTA, MCAS, MOS (Master), A+, N+, S+, ACA, VCA, etc... & 2nd Degree Black Belt
    WIP: MSc in Tech Management
  10. AJ

    AJ 01000001 01100100 01101101 01101001 01101110 Administrator

    I agree with what has been said here. CF is here to help/promote IT study and certification. Sure there are various ways of doing this, be it self study or TP. TP's are a wat to gain certs, but should be researched first. The crux is for people to research and hopefully here on CF they will get a balanced opinion guiding them to make an infirmed and logical decision.

    Wagnerk - set up a poll and see what comes up
    Certifications: MCSE, MCSA (messaging), ITIL Foundation v3
    WIP: Breathing in and out, but not out and in, that's just wrong
  11. Gingerdave

    Gingerdave Megabyte Poster


    Its clear what the problem is - You didn't train with Joskos :lol::lol:
    Certifications: A+,MCP, MCDST, VCP5 /VCP-DV 5, MCTS AD+ Net Inf 2008, MCSA 2008
    WIP: MCSA 2012
  12. GrumbleDook

    GrumbleDook Byte Poster

    I don't have many Certs ... only one in IT actually (C&G stuff)*, but get unbelievably frustrated with the "We can help you get a job in IT" adverts ... why not turn round and say "We can get you a job in the medical industry" ... yeah .. as a porter or cleaner ... or driving the meals from hospital A to hospital B!

    It treat these disinformation bursts with the same contempt as "We can help you get out of debt by consolidating all your loans with us!"

    *I know, I know ... I should really be here ... but look into to my eyes, look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, look into my eyes ... you're under. You know I am a lurker but are happy to have me here as an example that experience, enthusiasm and sheer hard work can still get you somewhere in this world of braindumps and stupid adverts about how easy it is to get a silly amount of money in a job in IT if you were to just follow one of their training paths ... three, two, one ... you're back. :rolleyes:

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