2009 Graduates

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Hey Folks.

I graduated back in June 2007 when the market was very stable and there was plenty of jobs available in the IT sector. I got my job 6 months after finishing my course at university and it got me thinking about.... this years graduate's. It is going to be vey hard to secure that first elusive IT job especially if they have no real work experience or didnt do a placement year. The fact that there isnt very much jobs out there in line with the competitiveness of in the industry suggest that these newbies are in for a shock. A lot of graduates when they finish uni, think they will leave and go onto well highly paid jobs. What do you guys think?

FatP.

 

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thats always been the case anyway, I thought I would get a well paid job when I left uni and I left in 99 but it didn't happen for me. People think that just because they went to uni they will get a good job with good money the same can be said for people who go with training providers it doesn't always happen

 

I honestly thought the same would happen to me, after getting a 1st class degree in June '08. However, the area of work I was applying to was very competitive and previous experience was a large advantage (which I didn't have). I'm very lucky I have my job now, and it's something I enjoy.

I think you could see more graduates either going on to do postgraduate qualifications or adding to the unemployed figures as they struggle to find work.

 

Guess am one lucky chap because last month I got an e-mail for a job offer with an IT firm actually a M$ partner organization. Takes effect immediately I graduate this September/October.

 

I've spotted a pattern amongst my friends, most of whom went to uni. The ones who didn't have any vision about what they were going to do have all come out and struggled to find work for what they see as decent pay. Not that I am knocking the subjects but they tended to be Philosophy/psychology/media studies type courses. I'd find it very hard to swallow if I had a 20k debt and couldn't find a decent job using what I had been studying.

The folks who went for something specific have all done very very well. My GF did 5 years to become a vet and went straight into a very well paid job. I had my doubts about the value of one mate studying biology at uni for 4 years. He came straight out and got a marine biology job down under for a very handsome salary Suppose it shows what happens when you know what you want to do

Edited

 

Hmm.

Qs

 

Students should be told from the beginning of their course to try to find part time work or even voluntary work in the subject they chose to study. They should be told that employers value work experience above anything else and if you have none then you will find it difficult to find work.

This would prevent students leaving uni feeling depressed because they have yet to find a job. They must realise how difficult it is and also the methods in looking for work, and should start applying for jobs while at uni rather than when they have finished.

When I graduated I thought I'd walk straight into a computer networking job, I never did and never have. I was clueless about how to go looking for jobs (other than applying for vacancies from the net) and consequently failed to get even a handful of interviews.

I got a 1st and 3 months later I was working in a warehouse for a couple of months, followed by several months doing nothing, then volunteering for 12 months in I/T Support before getting an admin job for 18 months which I recently quit and went travelling.

I could have done better without my degree. Not that it was the uni's fault or the government or because I had a degree. It was all my fault in that I didn't investigate how to properly look for work and lost my motivation very quickly expecting too much.

If you have to start at the bottom in a helpdesk role before progressing then a degree is pointless since you can work on a helpdesk without it.

I'm considering a career move,only because I hate the office, I need to be moving about and want to do something more meaningful. The trouble with I.T for me, in a way, is that it's not linked in any way to a good cause. You can do I.T anywhere, it's just about supporting the network, whether it be for a bank or shop or council or school or some other business., where I don't give a crap about what they're doing.

I guess I just hate the office environment, it makes me feel trapped.

 

Thanks Metalstar

 

My thoughts exactly

 

This is exactly why I didn't go into a full-time university degree course in Computer Science etc. It's not that I didn't have the grades (I did), it's because I wanted to secure a job and then achieve my qualifications without running up huge debts and having no experience when finished.

Surely those on such courses must realise that jobs aren't going to fall in to your lap once you graduate, right? Perhaps the 'get a degree, secure a well paid job easily' mentality is being forced upon students a bit too much...

Anyway, I digress.

I tend to disagree with you concerning some of your comments. Getting a degree is useful and shows potential employers that you have a commitment to succeed. Does it mean that you're guaranteed a job straight after graduating? Hell no. But it shows that you're an intelligent, determined individual. The problem is mainly down to lack of experience and students should start to realise that this is the case.

You're totally off the mark. I think you've been convinced that getting a degree means instant job time. It doesn't.

Think about it, whatever job you go for after graduating you still start somewhere at the bottom of the ladder. It's the same in I.T! The advantage to having a degree is that you should be able to progress and impress at a faster rate than those without qualifications to their name.

Right, /rant off

Qs

 

I guess some companies DO hire braindumpers.

 

I believe this is because there probably was a time when going to university pretty much was a passport to a more successful career, this was probably pre 1970's ? Some of this is to do with normal supply and demand, there are simply too many graduates for them all to get top jobs on grad fast track programs. For some this will still happen, those with Phds, people that went to oxbridge etc. People that trained in under subscribed areas which provide skills that industry needs.

The vast majority of jobs do not require years of academic training, a bright individual with a placement year could pick up most of whats necessary to perform at a modest standard.

There are however many roles for which entry is not really viable without the academic route, doctor, lawyer, scientist, engineer, etc.

 

Hmm. Food for thought.

I agree with placement years in University courses, it gives students a feel for what's required from them in the big, wide world. Those without placement years (and this is the majority) are still stuck in a catch 22 though. Plus the fact that placement years don't constitute 'real-world' experience which is what potential employers will be looking for. I'm not saying it's worthless, it's just not as impressive on your CV.

Of course, some jobs require certain... pre-requisites, but that's not to say that you won't start at the bottom of the 'ladder' when you enter into your chosen field. Doctors don't graduate and then instantly start performing higher-level duties inside the hospital of their choice. They need to work hard, get promoted and progress - it's the same in I.T (albeit with a slightly better pay-packet)

Qs

 

I was making a more general point, by 'placement', read trail or apprenticeship, basically any type of one on one on the job training. Remember the series faking it ? In just one month people blagged many different jobs, hell some people have even posed as doctors or pilots, seen 'catch me if you can' ?

That point was 'not all will get the oppourtunity to succeed'. Education to some extent 'buys' you the opportunity.

Many could perform to an average standard given the chance, without education they will not get the chance.

Its supply and demand, remember the joke about the lion and the trainers...

"Two guys on a photo safari in South Africa far from their vehicle or shelter with no means of protection. All of a sudden they realise that a lioness has crept up behind them unexpectedly and that they are in grave danger of being attacked. One of them immediately bends down, whips off his safari boots and dons his trainers. The other says to him "Are you crazy? That's just a waste of time - you'll never outrun a lion." The other replies "I don't have to outrun the lion, I only have to outrun you...."

The career rat race is largely about bettering your peers, its not about necessarilly being the best, you only have to prove you are better than the other applicants, thats why certs worked for a while. Its an arms race.

Sure, it wouldn't be the 'top' if everyone started there would it ?

Doctors and nurses do placements, so you could argue that either their career starts in college or that they don't start at the bottom.

Some careers have very flat career structures, in which case 'top' and 'bottom' become meaningless.

A talented Dentist, Vet or GP could probably start their own practice from college, i'm not expert but they would be their own boss, there would be no 'promotion'.

The same goes for many entrepreneurs, you start and end at the top if you are your own boss.

What about authors ? If your first published book is a bestseller, have you started at the 'top' ?

Still you can chose your examples to make whatever case you like, many athletes can start off pretty high in their field, musicians, the same with academics, some fields really are measured on ability and some people really do develop their ability very early on. It becomes quite arbitary depending on how you measure the 'start' of their career and the 'top'.

 

Sorry guys I didn't suspect any braindumping there I guess I should have looked at some of said chaps previous posts.

Definitely not endorsing that in any way, shape or form!

 

That's because you're new and don't know our old friend.

Isn't any fault of your own

Qs

 

Says who? In mine, for 7 months i did exactly what constitutes first line support. I believe it was this placement which enabled me to start in the job i am currently in. Not a one off either, as the people on my course on placements did the same sort of thing, and some even ended up staying with their placement employer full-time rather than go back to uni.

 

Says employers.

Placements are good (I've already said that I support them) but they're not comparable with real-world experience, and you can't put them down as a stable permanent job on your CV because they're not.

They shine if you have no experience in an I.T role and have just recently graduated. If you progress from that to a full-time job then great! If you get a job due to it, then great! But generally real-world experience is better by comparison.

Qs

 

I don't see any real difference between the first year after a non sandwich degree and the placement year in the middle of a sandwich course, in both cases the person performs work in the real world but under some supervision.

I would expect most employers would see it the same way.

Some students take research placements in industry and perform as well as permanent staff.

What is this magical real world experience ? What if it includes peeling potatoes in the kitchen or changing the paper in the xerox ? Not all experience is equal regardless of where it comes from.

 

Of course there is a difference. Obtaining a job without having any experience whatsoever (a student on a non-sandwich course) would generally have a harder time finding an I.T job than a student with experience, be that a full-time/part-time I.T job or a placement through uni.

Why? Placements are restricted to a set time period (the length of the placement through the uni). Full-time/Part-time I.T work isn't.

So the quality of the experience may be the same (using relevant, current skills applicable to the job you're looking to obtain), but the length of time isn't. Therein lies the difference.

And good on them! Go students!! It doesn't mean that after the placement they have any sort of guarantee of a job and the experience on their CV will be limited.

Qs