Why is it

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by greenbrucelee, Jul 16, 2008.

  1. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    compTIAs website explains it perfectly.

    Good points Ence:D
     
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  2. Davidus

    Davidus Nibble Poster

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    Going back to the main point GBL raised (if I can remember back that far, lol) I suppose ultimately its the combination of misleadings comments, misunderstanding, and sheer laziness of the individual.

    If someone wanted to become involved in IT (either from the off,or changing career) they're not going to know much about whats on offer, what to do, how to study or indeed how to get a job. So it's ignorance of the unfortunate kind there.

    But then I suppose GBL is on about those who visit this forum, and sometimes expect to post a thread without either looking around at the forums (or elsewhere) and hoping the answer is going to drop into their lap. That's the laziness part (hell, I'm guilty of that in times past), but I've learnt.

    Yeah, sure, theres a whole bunch of misleading figures, stats and so called advice out there and mainly from advertising sites. Guess their advertising for a reason - profit at the end of the day. Sadly,truth begins to get thrown to the wayside.

    Thats why this forum is so great, useful and informative. BUT at the cost of having so many people asking similar questions.

    I think i'll stop here as I think I'm beginning to ramble.....
     
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  3. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    I definetly don't mind people asking on here, that's what the place is about but a little research woudn't go a miss.

    Like I said before you would go into a car dealer ship and say I'll have that one without taking it for a test drive and reviewing the history.

    So why would you say yes to a qualification or cert without finding out wether you are eligable or have the ability to do it.
     
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  4. rax

    rax Megabyte Poster

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    The difference is that you know what you're looking for when buying a car. Some people trying to break into IT don't have a clue what to expect. When some sales rep spraffs a load of stuff at you you may end up feeling like a very small fish in a big big pond.
     
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  5. hbroomhall

    hbroomhall Petabyte Poster Gold Member

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    *You* wouldn't - because that is the way you approach things. But people have done this. Like an acquaintance of mine who was only interested in the colour and the general shape!

    Harry.
     
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  6. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Sorry, hippy, that's total crap. There ARE companies out there who make an honest living by selling courses that are relevant to the individual. They're certainly in the minority... and there's not AS MUCH money to be made as there is in selling the most expensive set of courses regardless of the individual... but that doesn't mean they won't make any money by being forthright.
     
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  7. BosonMichael
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    We advocate self-study generally because it's far less expensive. Sure, there are some bad training companies out there... but even if they were ALL good, self-study is STILL cheaper, and you can get just as much out of your studies.

    Trip thanked people because he got a royalty check. He didn't even list the full title, nor did he link to them. How is this advertising?

    Although I will answer questions related to Boson's products, I don't actively post that people should buy Boson's products. In truth, I rarely even tell people that they should buy practice exams to self study - I usually just mention books and hands-on experience. When I mention practice exam companies at all, I usually mention all the major ones, not just the one I work for.

    And as far as my book is concerned... I doubt I'll ever see a royalty check, so why bother advertising it on the forum? Everyone on this forum could buy a book and I'd still not likely see a royalty check. Yes, I'll mention it when someone asks... but I don't actively promote it.

    You sure do have a vendetta out for some of us, don't you? Go ahead... continue throwing out the personal attacks...
     
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  8. Arroryn

    Arroryn we're all dooooooomed Moderator

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    I'd hoped the smileys had marked it out for the sarcasm it was. I've never advocated making money by deception, as it's not a great idea, is it? ... was just trying to inject some joviality into the thread :dry :tongue
     
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  9. BosonMichael
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    To address the original post... many people go after the high-level certifications because that's generally all they've heard about, whether it be from an advertisement, a job posting, a recruiter, or from another tech. They don't know that you should have experience before pursuing them. No harm, no foul - they simply don't know any better. Problem is, there are people who take advantage of that ignorance and will sell them things that will NOT be helpful to their career.

    Shoot, if I didn't care about you guys and your careers, I'd try my best to sell you on as many Cisco and Microsoft certifications as I could, because that would likely bring more revenue to the company I work for. But I don't... because even though it might add to my paycheck, it won't help your IT careers.

    But I think their lack of understanding about IT certifications is simply part of a larger lack of understanding: many people don't know the correct career progression in IT. Many people believe that you can start out doing network administration, network security, server administration, or database administration. To them, IT is IT is IT, and a computer is a computer. And they believe that if they can pass one or more exams, that they will be automagically qualified to do those jobs. They don't know what IT employers are looking for when they hire.

    Unfortunately, you have to approach your career like you approach anything of any worth: do your research. If you don't do your research - even if you're simply not "wired like that" - then unless you are incredibly lucky, your lack of research will cause you problems. The only defense is knowledge.
     
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  10. BosonMichael
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    Oops. :oops:

    Sorry, touchy subject. :biggrin
     
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  11. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    A bit of clarity and sense, thanks BM.
     
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  12. Mitzs
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    Mitzs Ducktape Goddess

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    GBL, you are being a snob. Just because YOU knew what to do doesn't mean everyone else does. This additude of yours, well this should know better really just suxs. Alot of newbies don't know. Nor do they know what to search for. It is why they are called newbies.

    I hit this field running wide open. Only thing was, I didn't know which way to run. I just knew I wanted in the computers field. The internet was brand new to me, and I had no idea what google was. You look in the newspapers, you didn't see A+ or N+ wanted in the classifieds you saw companies that want MS or Cisco certs. Even after I started school I was still lost if it wasn't for the site I found that was like CF who had people that were willing to take me under their wing and become my mentors god only knows where I be now or if I would have even gotten though those courses.

    You say your here to learn and to help others where you can. Well you can not do that if you intened to stay up on that ledge that seems to have you put up above the rest of us. So climb down off your high horse, don't worry why someone doesn't know. It doesn't matter. What does matter is how you can help them on to the right path where learning this field is fun and they just can't wait till they get to move on to the next step without stuggling or feeling lost.
     
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  13. Mr Machfisto

    Mr Machfisto Nibble Poster

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    Nobody likes to hear a good news story on this website.

    Ok face it, GBL hates the thought of a TP, even though he has probably not experienced using one before.

    BM, ok I take your point, but the UK is far differnet from USA.

    In every trade there will always be rouges, whether in be building, plumbing or IT, but there are some good guys out there and yes you do have to do your research.

    GBL all you do is slate TP's and the only information you have on them are people who have posted once or twice on here then dissapeared.

    How about people who go to Uni and come out with £30000 worth of debt and end up working in Tesco's, does this mean you will now start having a go at Universities?

    My course was £26000 less than Uni and I am doing Ok for myself.

    Life is what you make it, if you keep moaning and groaning about all of the negatives in life you will end up negative in everything you do. Try thinking positively for 5 minutes. If a punter comes on the forum and states that he/she has started with a TP, wish them luck and offer your help, don't just tell them they have wasted thier money.
     
  14. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    I didn't mean to offend all I wanted to know is why people don't know what certs shouldn't be done until you have the correct experience.Maybe it just me and maybe it was my fault that I found out about MCSEs when I did my college course.
     
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  15. greenbrucelee
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    greenbrucelee Zettabyte Poster

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    Did I not say well done to you for getting as far as you have and for doing well?

    The only thing I have ever had about TPs is that they charge ****loads of money when it can be done for much cheaper. I have nothing against colleges.

    And for your information I was going to go with a TP until I heard about the fact that they provide you with some books then tell you to read them and charge you for the privelage. So that is why I decided to self study. And that is why I recommend self study as it's not expensive. I have read more negatives about TPs than positives and not just on this site.
     
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  16. Mitzs
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    Mitzs Ducktape Goddess

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    Wow, with only 21post under your belt, I don't think your in a position to call judgement on GBL or on CF. We love it when people succed here and share it with us. It gives others hope and we realize that.

    And I don't belive GBL hates anything. I've seen him get aggervated like the rest of the world does at certains things that just rub him the wrong way. But hate? I don't belive the man has a hate bone in his body.
     
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  17. BosonMichael
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    First, from what THESE guys, who are largely from the UK, are saying on the forum about UK training providers, they're as bad or WORSE than the US training providers. It's not me saying it... it's the UK folks on the forum who are saying it.

    Second, and most importantly, it doesn't matter if you're in the US, UK, China, India, or Australia... self-study is much, much, much cheaper than going with a training provider.

    So... how is that not a good news story?!? "GOOD NEWS!! You don't have to pay thousands to a training provider!!! Just get some books and some hands-on experience, and you too can pass the exam!" To me, that sounds like VERY good news for someone wanting to take an exam!

    You're diverting, which is a logical fallacy: link - it has nothing to do with the argument that TPs are more expensive than self study, or that many TPs offer training courses that are ill-suited to what someone needs for a successful IT career.

    But to address your misdirection, we do have a go at them. For-profit universities here in the states are looked at with a heavy dose of skepticism and disregard. In any case, a degree doesn't give most people the career boost in IT that they think it will, particularly in the field of network and server administration. Degrees are much more useful in the field of programming, where you can get quite a bit of hands-on code development. You can't really teach the experience you get from day-to-day network administration.

    Don't get me wrong, degrees, like certifications, can give you an edge over your competition. But someone with a four-year degree and no experience will NOT have an edge over someone with four years of real-world IT admin experience.

    Congrats. My four-year university degree cost less than $10,000 (guesstimate: $7500), which is less than the price of the training courses the forum members speak of. So? None of that changes anything about whether self-study is less expensive than a TP.

    But dude... we're not being negative about life. We're avoiding the negatives in life. :biggrin And we believe that everyone else should avoid them too! :rolleyes:

    Most of us do wish them luck and offer our help. You just seem to get your panties in a wad anytime someone on here mentions, "How long ago did you sign? Have you considered self study?"... like you're taking it personally or something. :rolleyes:

    Hey, if someone finds a training provider that provides sound advice regarding what certifications to pursue (and NOT pursue until they get experience!), then as long as they go into the decision with ALL of the options presented in front of them, and they absolutely feel they HAVE to spend that much money, then more power to them - I wish them well!
     
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  18. craigie

    craigie Terabyte Poster

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    People all learn in different ways.

    The thing to remember is that the way we 'did it' or are 'doing it' is perhaps right for us and not everyone.

    However, you achieve your objective whether it be:

    Tutor Lead
    Self Study
    Work Based Experience
    Training Provider

    It doesn't really matter, the 'royal we' should be happy that 'they' want to further themselves and have come here to get advise from anonymous people behind keyboards (apart from that GTG thingy.....what does GTG stand for btw?)
     
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  19. Mitzs
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    Mitzs Ducktape Goddess

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    Get togather. :biggrin I think.
     
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  20. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    You are correct. However, people shouldn't be offended when someone mentions whether someone has considered using self-study options yet. Dude, many people don't even know that self-study is even an option! Have you seen the number of people coming through these forums who believe that you HAVE to take a class to get certified? Or those who are confused thinking that their final exam *is* the certification exam, when in reality, it is not?

    Certainly taking a training course is a valid option. We simply give alternatives to those who don't know that alternative study methods exist. Is that so wrong?
     
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