Why choose atheism?

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It does make a refreshing change that people have heeded simon's warning about keeping this civil. Normally a thread of this nature turns into an argument that you would hear two school children having in a playground with name calling. I'll give you my thoughts later when I return.

 

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LOL, mine shut down long ago :P

 

I wish...

Like John Paul Sartre (sorry to name-drop), my 'hell is other people', so I'm kind of stuck with mine...

 

I'm not sure you'll find a scientific explanation for faith, however we all believe in something. Most of us believe the sun will rise in the east every morning, but of course that belief is based on experience. Many people believe that humans evolved from less complex species, although there is no direct proof of this. Some people believe in life on other planets. What causes those beliefs?

It's funny you should say that because many people of faith, myself included, can't imagine a universe of such perfection and intricate interaction existing *without* an intellegent, creative force behind it. It would be virtually impossible for *everything* in the universe, from the smallest micro-form to the largest macro-form occuring by total random chance. Add to that the fact that no scientific theory explains a causal factor to the universe and it gets even more beyond belief.

 

Another possible reason the universe is the way it is, is because it has to be this way. If it was even a little bit different, we wouldn't be here to see it and we wouldn't be having this conversation... We live in the universe we live in because we can't live in any other.

For all we know, this might be one of a gazillion universes, most of them completely empty and dead. This one just happens to have us in it, because a series of accidents put us here to ask the question. It's not design - it's just how it has to be.

 

Its funny I am looking at this thread now and the Simpsons episode where they ban evolution from school is on

 

I'm sorry to have to say this shambles, but your explanation of the existance of the universe seems far less likely than mine.

This brings up (at least for me) the question of why many people resist the idea of "intellegent design" (and I'm not even introducing a specific theology here). On the surface, the argument is presented that "scientific and intellegent" people could only believe in natural processes for the creation and existence of the universe as opposed to supernature processes. The question is, if you dig deeper, is one of the reasons for resisting "intellegent design" the idea that there is a force in the universe more powerful than humanity?

Think about it for a second. If there is an all-powerful, intellegent being that not only created the universe but has a personal interest in each individual on Earth, how are we supposed to respond to that? What does that mean about our place in the universe and are there some sort of expectations for our existence set out by our creator? Interesting questions, don't you think?

 

Intresting quotes trip, if you believe in an all powerful creator who has an intrest in every human on this planet then why does he/she/it then decide that some of us should die horribly and some of us die peacfully.

This is why I do not believe in a God, the bible says God is all loving and peacfully but yet people get hurt and die if he was loving then people wouldnt die in horrible ways.

Also if God was all intelligent then he would (well I would) limit the human concieus to think of ways to murder etc

 

The reason people have difficulty with 'intelligent design' is that it doesn't bring anything new or useful to the party. Most of what we see around us can be explained quite happily with a bit of High-School Physics. The bits that are not explained probably soon will be - unless the religious right closes all the science classes. It simply isn't necessary to invoke some sort of super-being to explain it.

But...

I have no idea what kicked it all off. What happened in that first instant is still very much up for grabs, to my mind. But I don't have even a sliver of a reason to believe it is anything I would want to call 'God'.

Your questions about a hypothetical super-being are interesting, but sit (for me) in the same place as I hold my other favourite theory: What if I am the only real thing, and I am imagining all the rest of you, and all the rest of this? I'm sorry - I don't believe. I just don't...

 

Intersting, when I was a kid I went through a faze of thinking that I was the only real person and that if I saw someone they were real but as soon as they were out of my sight they would become obsolete untill they came with in my vision again.

But we know this doesnt happen, but who can say that someone created us just because its in a book

 

Interesting, when I was a kid I went through a faze of thinking that I was the only real person and that if I saw someone they were real but as soon as they were out of my sight they would become obsolete untill they came with in my vision again.

But we know this doesnt happen, but who can say that someone created us just because its in a book

 

Spooky - your post came up twice...

The stuff about whether people exist when you are not actually dealing with them face to face, is one of those arguments that serious philosophers make whoopie about...

Thing is, we don't know anything for sure, but some things are a bit more likely (or a whopping great big pile more likely) than others.

And that's all the Creationist/Darwinist argument is. One theory has some good evidence to support it and would be a good gamble down the bookies. The other is a fairy tale and you shouldn't waste your money. All you need to do is take your best shot at which one is right.

And pray to God you get it right!

 

This has been widey debunked, as has been mentioned, read any of Richard Dawkins excellent books or papers.

People who believe in Evolution like myself regard it as a stronger force than design when applied over millions of years and the vastness of space. Its possible to even look for simple analogies, was the motor car designed or did it not 'evolve' in design ? Why didn't we build the first car to run at 200 mph with a V12 engine ? Well probably because we didn't understand the problem or the solution space well enough, as time went by and we tried a few things both spaces shrunk leaving only a few promising paths. What was more powerful design or evolution ? Perfect design requires perfect foresight, something thats very had to have, evolution does not have this problem.

An analogy might be gravity, on the small scale this is a tiny force seemingly insignificant, on the large scale it shapes the entire universe.

Evolution is relatively well proven, I'm not sure why people are still contesting this. Have you not seen Speciation and Mutation with your own eyes ? Have you not seen the weakest member of the pack killed ?

There is every reason the universe is the way it is because of chance and evolution. I think its fairly arrogant to invent an all powerful being and then say they would be interested in our every move. Why not instead sit and look at the vastness of the mountains, the sky, the sea, the universe and wonder how small and insignificant we are ? How our problems are in fact very small, I find this humbling and far more useful.

 

I'm with you on this one dmarsh26...

The universe is vast and humbling and awe-inspiring...

And I don't need God or any other spiritual belief system getting in the way of the wonder I feel. It's plenty enough as it is...

 

Nice one I agree some rep must come your way

 

BTW my post went all funny whilst I was pressing submit and i got a messagemsaying I should try again in 30 seconds. So I did but it must have done it anyway then I put it in again

 

Turn the question around. An intellegent, creative all-powerful being might consider it a tad arrogant of mortal humans to assume that something as purposeful as the universe was a result of blind, random probability and even more so that we should expect to be able to explain *everything* in the near future (and how long have we been waiting for "grand unification theory" anyway?).

Let's again keep in mind that we are going to disagree on these issues by definition.

BTW, scientifically, no theory is every "proven". The best you can get responsibly is to have a body of data based on observations that supports the theory. As far as a lower, less complex species evolving into a higher, more complex species goes...no one has ever observed that directly. We infer such a thing through the fossil record among other things, however our dear friend the "missing link" between less developed primates and humans is still MIA.

As far as the apparent capriciousness of the Almighty allowing some to have what on the surface appears to be a carefree life and others to suffer horribly...that one has been beaten back and forth by both secular and religious scholars for ages. While G-d is all merciful, He is also the living embodiment of justice and frankly, He who creates the universe, makes the rules. From a human perspective, who can fully explain the mind or motivations of G-d. Also, keep in mind that there is a life beyond this one where everyone will receive the consequences for their actions in this life...for good and for ill.

This is one of those points where non-believers state that if G-d were G-d, we'd all have completely easy, properous, and perfect lives on Earth. While G-d could produce that for us, it isn't why He created us. We do have a hand in our lives and what happens to us. This is not to say that everyone who suffers deserves it. On the contrary, the Bible speaks of situations where people question G-d on why the violent and corrupt prosper and the righteous suffer. It also says that our days on Earth are like grass...growing and green today, dried up and ready for burning tomorrow. Everyone would believe and have faith in G-d if He made our lives perfect. It takes faith to face the stuggles in life and still believe.

 

Thats a fair point most of these arguments cannot be proven 100%, as you say lifes not like that, the best we can do is gather the best evidence and draw the best conclusions. Fortunately we are well evolved for dealing with a small amount of uncertainty and the scientific practices I mentioned are designed for our ideas to be refined or discarded and replaced if necessary.

Experimental science is based on observing repeatable phenomena. Many things in the bible have never been proven, or have ever happened again, yet people still believe in them.

Some parts of science are incredibly hard, like your faith nobody said it was easy. The formal proof for fermats last theory took one of the most illegent mathematicians in the world over 7 years of full time study to prove, and that was one relatively simple looking formula. Where would civilization be now if all the scientists and engineers throughout history had said lets not bother, god will sort it out? That is why I don't think it is arrogant to try to glimpse what you may call the 'mind of god'.
What if we didn't bother with medicine and only prayed ? What if we spread end time belief to africa and convinced them to commit mass suicide ? What if we told people in africa not to use condoms, the continent with the highest rate of HIV ?

What if I am right and there is no afterlife ? If you live a thoughly miserable life as a slave or subsistence worker convinced your reward is in the afterlife you will have been cruelly cheated.

As I said evolution is a slow process, you wouldn't be able to observe an entire complex organism evolve. You can observe the genetics of offspring and the alterations in the DNA. We can't see many things directly like the big bang, radio waves etc, we believe them to exist from logic, experiment, theory and inference.
Many people think we have found 'missing link' specimens, like i said life is complicated don't expect a smoking gun every time.

So basically your saying god likes to play one giant sick game am I right ? In that case I'm glad its your god and not my god.

If you observe other religions they don't all share the same beliefs many seem more optimistic, less vengeful and guilt ridden, Christianity has some fairly bizare concepts, virgin birth, original sin, the holy trinity. I can't help feel that the bible is the way it is because it was created by a suppressed people.

 

Actually, one of the twelve disciples of Jesus was a physician so the idea of treating the sick and injured medically isn't an issue. There are some offshoots of Christianity that believe in faith healing only and the Jehovah's witnesses are opposed to blood transfusions, but they are in the minority.

As far as what "sick game" G-d seems to be playing, that is a human conclusion. Granted, from the outside it probably does seem quite difficult to understand and I won't offer an explanation beyond the one I've already presented to avoid a "back-and-forth" exchange that would have no real ending. Tough as it may be sometimes, I'm prepared to accept the words in the Bible that say "My (G-d's) ways are above your (humanity's) ways as the heavens are above the Earth". You should read the end of the book of Job sometime. After the terrific hardships Job went through, always maintaining his faith when everyone else including Job's wife told him to "...curse G-d and die", he asked G-d why he had to go through all that. G-d's response to Job is about the best sort of explanation we are going to get as far as why G-d allows what He allows.

 

What I find interesting is how Christians always intertwine what are really 2 completely separate issues:

1/ Was the Universe created by an intelligent being? (God, Creator, whatever your terminology of choice )

2/ Is Christianity (of which there are thousands of flavours with different beliefs and rules, mind) an accurate reflection of Him and His desires?

Christians always argue that the answer to the First question is Yes, and that somehow it naturally follows that the Second question is also answered Yes.

Talk about illogical and arrogant! What's one got to do with the other?

I believe the answer to the First question *is* Yes.

I also believe quite emphatically that the answer to the Second question is No. I don't need divine inspiration for that proof. All I need to do is keep my eyes and ears open to see proof of it everyday.