What is a 'Training Provider' and how are they different from each other?

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I'd also point out, that although I'm not Sir Alan Sugar, I'm not aware of any business that is interested in both parties being 'square'.

 

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Its called 'win-win' and its the best kind of business !

Why would you want to be on the losing end of a deal ?

Thats called 'lock in', if you don't sign a contract, or if you sign a contract with no 'lock in' it does not apply. I never signed a contract to take my fulltime HND or degree at university, or MCSA at nightschool, or my professional courses, or my OU course.

People are too used to credit and dodgy contracts thanks to modern living, doesn't make them right. Any idea how much advertising money they spent to make you think they are right and its all 'natural' ?

 

Sure there are bad TP's out there! But there are good ones!!

Just like anything really

Like i said some TP's do add real value

Your right they cant guarantee a job but some do help with recruitment and positions

I have been offered several interviews from mine which i couldn't take because A. i cant drive and they were field positions and B. i am currently ill.

Not so long ago there was someone on here complaining about a TP because he run out of time due to other commitments, however, was there problem? ... and get this, he also got a job through them which people would kill for... you just cant please some people

 

I did at the beginning of each term for tuition fees , and i bet i would have had a red letter or two if i hadn't paid.

Some hotels now charge your card as you book , before you have even stepped in the place.

Its just how things are.

 

This would be for that terms tuition, not the entire course, its a limited commitment, this is an important distinction. You have to pay a small amount upfront, that is only reasonable, running a business incurs overheads and risk itself and they must cover their risk.

This is a business covering itself against your risk by taking a small amount up front, or a 'deposit', just in case you try to run off, raid the mini bar, smash the place up, etc... This is quite reasonable, its not like charging you for a years stay when you decide you hate the hotel because its too noisy after a month, which is what some TP's do !

In your world maybe, I only enter into agreements that suit me, I make sure I get the best terms for me. If you want to enter into poor agreements and suffer because of them then thats your choice.

 

No not deposits, I don't think you getting what I was trying to put across maybe i dint put it across properly.

But you said it! you only sign something that you understand and are happy with in the first place.

Andrew

 

It is a 'commitment charge', 'deposit', 'cancelation fee', 'security cover', 'deposit for incidentals', whatever you want to call it. Allocating you the room potentially means they will have to turn away other business, the same is true of a place at university.

Also once you turn up and check into the room you can charge services (phone, minibar, bar, films, meals, etc) to your room so they are also at risk for these additional services, plus the already mentioned potential for revenue loss should you do a runner/not turn up, plus insurance against any damage you may do to the room, hotel and its contents.

You hotel-booking/university-place has tied up resources that cost money, the company has to cover itself. If it didn't whats to stop you booking 200 rooms and then cancelling at the last minute costing the business thousands £££'s ?

However this argument only holds for a limited period, people don't generally book rooms for years ahead, therefore taking a deposit for more that a few days at a time is not reasonable.

I would argue a TP not letting you sample their service and in effect charging you for a three year period even though you might only attend for short period is not reasonable, the charge does not reflect their costs or risks.

The only argument that I can think of is that maybe TP's are the 'RyanAir' of professional training, they give you a cheaper cost but your ticket is non transferable or refundable and subsidised by those that don't pass. If thats the case you better make sure you are the one getting to fly being subsidised by the people that are overbooked and don't get to fly !

 

We all use training providers to some extent.

Nearly all the main companies provide training in the form of books, and CBTs, then we have companies such as CBT Nuggets, Boson, Transcender and many more covering anything from CBTS, sims, exam simulators and so much more.

However i think this thread is more referring to classroom/distance learning training that has a company with some sort of vested interest in collating information, and then giving you some sort of study plan and support.

I think the last part is the key, study plan and support.

Some people who go after certs will be experienced, however id imagine most would fail the exams using purely work experience, so we all have to plan and prepare for exams in our own way.

I think some people who are new to IT will see the study plan and more importantly the support part of what a TP will offer as the thing that ultimately sells it (ignoring the you can earn x amount per annum claims).

We all have to start somewhere and someone who appears to us as knowledgable and can help us make the transition from complete novice, to someone who is skilled in the quickest time (with the least amount of pain) possible, is a very tempting prospect.

What I would say that from my own experience of 2 Training providers, both of them have let me down due to poor material and also the support, on the few times i needed it, was woefully lacking, and thats the key.

Do training providers give you any sort of reference as to the expertise when it comes to the support you will receive?

Did the people who offer support pass because of braindumps or just taking exams, or through actually being in the business and earning there stripes.

In my cynical opinion, anyone who works on a training provider such as these, regurgitating a few answers to questions, or in some cases providing a link (which i would say is definiately a script/or knowledge base they are working from) is what you will get, and thats not tutoring, thats just investigation work, which is what anyone could do for themselves.

I am however sure there are dedicated, knowledgable and experienced trainers/tutors out there, but you should try your best to make sure these are the ones involved in the TP you are involved with.

 

Yeah i meant those two weren't the best examples to put across

Night

 

I don't think using Training Provider as a catch all term provides any value at all. People know what a college, university, CBT, book, professional course are, also some of these are training resources not providers.

To me 'Training Provider' means a non-standard, non-regulated, non-accredited business that provides training, often by offering professional courses in a bulk package spread out over 1-3 years for a large upfront non-refundable payment.

 

Sounds like to me, you have a bad experience with a particular TP and fair enough that's your Opinion, but not everyone shares that opinion!

But to put all TP's in the same boat? Tell me then what is the difference between a Long distance learning provider such as CT and OU?

They both provide learning materials; they both provide contact to tutors via email! OU is no difference to a TP?

At University they expect you to purchase the books; they also expect you to read around the subject (self study). It's not like 9 to 5 job, where you know what hours you will be working! Unlike Uni where it could be 2 or 4 hours of classroom lectures (assuming the lecturer turns up and is not taking the day off to work on his boat)
You don’t sign up on a course thinking all I have to do is put feet up and they will spoon feed me the information until I pass my exam! But some people do start a course with their eyes shut! They focus on the one thing that everyone can’t live without and that’s money! (IMHO)

 

Read my posts I've been quite clear open and honest with my definitions. I have never used a TP based on my definition of what a TP is and therefore have no axe to grind, only my opinion based on what I've seen and heard. I have explained what I see as the differences.

If I use your broader definition of a TP I am very happy/fairly happy with the various HND, degree, professional courses, college/nightschool, CBT, books I have used.

According to you I haven't put them all in the same boat, I make a distinction between accredited recognised colleges and universities (of with the OU is one) and resource providers like CBT nuggets/Microsoft press, professional course training companies like Learning Tree/QA and TPs like Computeach/Skillstrain etc.

In the catgory of TP I make a further distinction between good and bad and ask you to assume that maybe there are some bad ones, maybe 10% ? If there some bad ones what is a prospective student to do ? Then I pose the question :- Even if they get references, read materials, get legal advice on the contract etc, is it wise to hand over a large lump sum upfront and sign a lock in to a time limited and schedule limited agreement ?

In my opinion the answer is no, if you think yes then why not explain, is it because you think there is zero risk ? Do you like to gamble ? etc.

I have pointed out the differences, the OU is a government recognised, accredited University, most of its qualifications are recognised all over the world. Many TP's offer their own qualifications which are essentially worthless. The OU can be cheaper in some cases. They both can use a combination of distance learning and study groups or bootcamps. They both can provide learning support via phone email, study sessions and a contact tutor. The OU does not require a 'lock in' or large upfront payment covering the whole course and many years of tuition, I thought I was quite clear on this.

Fair points, all forms of training vary in quality, thats something I tried to point out, having the option to leave is therefore very important. You have this option with a university and the OU, you can transfer to another university. You can cancel your OU course and only lose a percentage of your degree cost. In many cases you do not get this option with a TP.

In many cases this is sour grapes by unprepared students I agree, however the way in which the courses are marketed does not help and positively ensures that unsuitable candidates are drafted onto TP schemes. Top universities absolutely do not let this happen and pick the cream of the applicants that will get the best results from the course.

If peoples expectations are managed up by salespeople, if they are told anyone can breeze through the course and get into IT, that 'its easy get your pack and self study at your own pace' as the adverts put it, then its no wonder this happens. The salespeople make many references to career and salary. I did not research salary until the last year of my degree, it was my passion for computers that made me do it, the money was largely irrelevant.

The drop out rates for my HND and degree were also high, you have no idea how many people just cannot be bothered to learn assembler, or indeed anything of any difficulty about computers. Most of these people however at least did not lose £3-4k in the process out of their own pocket.

 

Very informative topic. It might be an idea to start a thread on which Training Providers people have had a good experience and why and the same for bad experiences.

Good to see that the communication is structured for a change not the usually 'rubber stamp of they are all rubbish'.

 

So your answers are based on other peoples misfortune?

I was reffering to how the study material is provided, not the status/reputation of the institution!

I don't assume (as you put it) that there are good or bad TP's, I can only make my judgement on something I have experienced with. True there are alot of stories and documentary's about TP's who sell false information in order to sell the product. I have had 3 bad experiences with Long distance Learning providers and 2 good experiences with a class room and Long distance TP!

I will not put the name of those Tp's here, but will say they get mentioned everyday on CF and various other forums!

Life is a gamble my friend! Nothing really every goes to plan!

Doing a degree at University is no difference, you still have to fund yourself through the course and pay for rent, books materials, and food. etc. etc.

Some people fall ill, some drop out and some take a year out! But they still have hand over a Wad of cash to before the course! If they fail (because they like the social life more than the course or any other reason) they still have to folk out more cash to fund themselves for another year!

They can do the research on UCCAS or student life books to find out what the course is like what the reputation of the institution is!

They have no idea what the training materials will be like or what and if the lecturers can teach and believe I have experienced of this whereby a lecturer know and understands physics, but can't teach it and even admits it to the students!

Yes, I agree with what you have said, however, I think we are talking at cross purposes. As i metioned above I was refferring to how the study material is provided!

True - I agree with that! it's called CATS modular system

Actually I disagree with that part, Universities need money and will not always as you have put pick the cream of the applicants. They need to fill their courses, therefore they will offer a places to people who have not got straight A's. Sometimes these individuals will have to do a foundation course at the choosen university before starting the degree! But it always comes done to money! Of course I'm only stating this from my experience with Swansea University!

Well that's good to hear! I did not mean to state you are motivated by money or anyone else who enjoys IT!
I was referring to people who go in eyes wide shut! The threads that have been raised with "which cert should I do so I can be on £32K per year" those are the ones who seem to be attracted to IT for all the wrong reasons!

I apologise if I gave you the impression you or anyone (who is generally in IT because they enjoy it) is solely motivated by Money!

Actually I do have some idea, the degree I applied to do was a combined BSc Chemistry with Computer Science, I applied to several university's and even looked at OU so I can still do a full time job! In the end I study at Plymouth University and read BSc Anaytical Chemistry.

In the 1st year there was 85 students, in 2nd year this dropped to 25 students and finally the 3rd year this dropped to 15 students. most people failed, could hack it and dropped out or decided chemistry wasn't for them and changed to Hippy Studies (Environmental Science)

When I first started my degree at university, it was a combined honours Chemistry with Computer Science. I later changed it to Chemistry with Italian (partly because I was dating an Italian girl at the time!). But the computer science side. Was unstructure, poor and the books provided where awful! I used to have arguments with one of the lecturers, because he would recommend a book that had his name written (almost as though he was salesman selling his product). the book was very poor inexplaining how to programme!

We had to learn to use modular 2 (Has anyone every heard of this or more to the point ever used it?) I learn't more at a local college about programming, than I ever did at university!

 

My opinions are based on the totality of my life experience and what I have read and heard yes, thats the beauty of it, you might even alter them !

I think most things follow a normal distribution. Your own experiences with TP's appears distributed.

Of course but it does not mean that you can not do things to mitigate risk. It always pays to have options, the more the better !

I don't think its fair to count rent and food, people need these regardless of TP/non TP. Unless you are a foreign student your tuition used to be largely government funded, I don't know what the status is now.

The point is generally you pay for services that are delivered, you agree to attend lectures, the lectures are delivered, if you miss them its generally not the universities fault. If you fail the first year you are not forced to pay for years two and three, this is in stark contrast to many TP contracts that charge the full amount upfront and will not refund and will not deliver further training if you fail a module.

As I said all education varies, but with a university you can switch courses, universites, modules, take a year out, there are many options. There are also other safe guards, you have a student union, a student course representative, a course advisor, a careers advice service etc. While most of their influence is fairly minor they can sometimes be of assistance and tend to be reasonably independant.
The biggest single factor with TP's seems to be that your options are severly limited.

Fundamentally there are only so many ways to train, one day we will get matrix style head jacks and I'll learn kung fu in 10 minutes !

There are however many ways to structure the payment terms and conditions and contract and amount of options available to the student as mentioned.

Fair point, I said TOP universities. Universities are after all, businesses too and I have witnessed conflicts of interest and poor lecturers too. I just think that its probably easier to work around in the traditional system.

Thanks, apology accepted but I also don't think it is necessary. I don't think anyone has said anything wrong. I just was pointing out that all educational institutions have a responsibility for how they market their product and treat their students.
Now at 18 you may be legally an adult but many people think the male brain does not finish growing until around 22! I know I did my far share of dumb stuff at uni, but maybe that was just the booze!!!

Ok maybe you do know ! My remark was a little flipant.

So surely you are living proof that you can use the flexibility of the University system to work around issues ?

I am not saying any system is perfect. I had similar issues athough I don't view them like you. In the first year I learnt ADA and COBOL and VAX/VMS at college, the principles I took from this are very useful even though the specifics aren't. Fortunately I learnt many languages and some of them were directly applicable in the outside world. I do think many tech colleges do an excellent job and can be better than universities. I'm glad I have my HND AND degree for various reasons.

Friends of mine went to universites and learnt Pascal or Modula2, this was not uncommon at the time and these are not bad starter languages, they are probably no worse than ADA. Modula 2 was superseeded by Oberon which never took off. Delphi a form of Object Pascal did well for a while until it was killed off by VB. The reality is you have to constantly retrain, you can't learn one language and stick with it, you have to be multilingual.

I too had some poor lecturers/modules, but the good ones more than made up for it.

I'll shut up now and give someone else a chance !

 

Thank you dmarsh! for your comments. I have certainly taken in what you said and found it interesting!

Although I don't agree with some of the things you have said I can see it from your point view!

 

I just want to interject that it's good to see this discussion on such a potentially charged topic go so well. While there are disagreements, it's heartening to see that no one is taking disagreements personally. Well done.

 

Demarche, Im with you ...

Problems are definitions, and what's permitted...

 

Not many people do research though, they see someone who can provide them with a certification, someone who can aparently get them a job for 37k a year and someone who will make it as easy as possible for them to pass. Some people like I at first don't know that you don't have to do a course to do an exam.

They don't know that its complete bull**** because they don't know any better, and his why certain people on here try to publicise this fact.

I said before and got castigated for it " How come I knew the MCSE was for pros when I was at college in 94?" but there are still people dooing it when they shouldn't be?

We have had two threads today about people having bad experiences with TPs.

MAybe some of the things I have said are not cast iron, but one thing that is You can't rip yourself off.