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Salary Expectations - What would you do in my situation?

Discussion in 'Employment & Jobs' started by Coupe2T, Apr 24, 2012.

  1. Coupe2T

    Coupe2T Megabyte Poster

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    Hi All,

    I am sensing the beginnings of an issue brewing at work.

    I have worked within the same company (Of Sorts, i'll explain in a moment) for about 4 years now. I started in an Operational Services position, so was monitoring a large variety of systems with tools such as Tivoli, Control M and so forth and so on. This position was a shift position, and my salary was set at 26k with a 20% uplift for working on a shift basis. So let's call it around 32k.

    After 2 years, I was outsourced to a new company, as part of the outsourcing there was obviously a reasonable length of time where I was very unsure as to whether I would still have a job and so on, so to cover my bases I talked to a couple of friends about available positions elsewhere etc, and subsequently was offered a job doing Operations again in London for about 35k, which given the cost to travel for worked out about the same. When I told my existing company about the position and my intent to potentially leave, they made an offer to me to have trained and moved into a Network Support position within 12 months and that as part fo the move my shift allowance would be made part of my permanent salary, ie I would be on about 32k a year.

    I was at the time unsure what to do, but then through some bad HR personnel at the potential new company the offer of a position fell through (Long Story), so I therefore had little choice but to accept the offer made to me by the new company I was outsourced too. I received the offer formally via e-mail, but only via e-mail (You can probably see partly where this is going, but it get's worse).

    As part of the offer, I had to basically start learning CCNA material with a view to getting the theory together, before spending the first 6 months with the Network support team and then taking my exams to become properly certified.

    So now, I have worked my butt off, not only helping out in the previous position of Operational Services, but also looking after another system that I was asked to take on (IXOS Archiving System if any of you have ever heard of it), which again involved learning a fair few new things, nothing too technical but still time demanding. I have then had to create a large number of documents regarding the support of IXOS and various scenarios and have spent 8 months doing a KT with an offshore team in India to pass on the support to them, which has held up my move to the network support team as they just haven't been pulling their weight in the offshore team.

    So all in all I have been mega busy working my butt off in and out of the office to get up to speed and help all I could, during which time I have also had my first daughter born and bought a house and finally things seem to be settling, The KT is due to be signed off end of this week and so my move to Networks can go ahead and I can get involved with them etc, but now they are trying to avoid putting the shift allowance into my wages and are asking for the original offer in writing etc. To make things worse, I can't find the e-mail confirming the whole agreement (Although I am sure I have it somewhere, I just can't find it).

    No I am under no illusions that I am essentially a trainee etc, but with my past positions, and also having callout time supporting IXOS I have been earning in excess of 35k a year, and put simply if they don't push the shift allowance into my salary they are basically expecting me to get promoted to a more technical and more demanding position whilst also taking a pay cut of about 10k a year.

    So to my question, I don't expect to be paid the same 35k a year, but I would imagine that 32k is a more than reasonable salary for someone who knows the company systems architecture very well, has proven already to have been absorbing a lot of the theory knowledge relating to networking and CCNA in general and someone who may still be required to support our IXOS system when the offshore team realise they can't fix something (Which will happen, I have no doubt). Am I being unreasonable in expecting this sort of a Salary? I'm in the South East of the UK, and from what I can see the average for a qualified CCNA person is about 37.5k, taken from here : South East CCNA Jobs, Average Salary for CCNA Qualifications and over 90% of jobs offer more than 27.5k.

    Sorry about the long winded explanation but these things are difficult to answer at the best of time, so wanted to give as much info as possible regarding the situation. What does everyone think?
     
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  2. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

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    In this climate, who knows...

    Alot of organisations (not all mind you) are merging, cutting staff, reducing pay, etc, etc, etc...

    Ok, be carefully with this statement of the "average...", there are alot of variable to take into consideration. For example a senior network engineer may only have the CCNA and be on £35k+. I would take a look at specific job adverts instead of searching for CCNA salaries specifically.

    I did a search for "IT manager" with the qualifications that I have, the years experience, the sector I work in and surprise... the average salary was more than I was on.

    You may also have to consider other benefits like:

    Flexible working hours
    Employer pension contributions
    Private health care
    Annual leave entitlement
    etc...
     
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  3. Coupe2T

    Coupe2T Megabyte Poster

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    Indeed, and all good points, but that was just a general overview for CCNA qualification, and as mentioned over 90% of all jobs listing CCNA offered wages of over 27.5k, so regardless I should be getting more than 26k which they seem like they are trying to get away with shouldn't I?

    Also as I am now working for an outsource company, I should also point out their profits grew by over 13% last year to something like 8.9 billion Dollars or something similar, they are certainly not a company in any trouble what so ever.

    As for benefits, again being an outsourcing company there are basically no benefits unless I pay for them, they have health insurance schemes etc but they are all paid for, there are no freebies. we get 25 days holiday, which isn't terrible but also not amazing I don't think compared to most companies. I think they pay a maximum of 2% towards pension contributions too, which as far as I know is quite low compared to most.

    The role itself though will basically be as a Network Support Engineer for a massive Blue Chip Electronics company. So I still feel that I should certainly be getting in excess of 30k, but I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by arguing too strongly if my position isn't really strong enough, if that makes sense.

    As said as well, it's not just about my future role, but my knowledge of the entire architecture here and the knowledge of our Archiving application etc as well that they will need, which they know they will need and have already told me so etc.
     
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  4. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    If you can't find the original email, then you are SOL. Emails have been used in court as legal documents, so if you can provide it, then you most likely have a solid case for getting what you were promised. I'm no lawyer, so I can't say it's rock solid, but I would think there was a good chance.

    If you are unhappy with the offer they are giving you, then the only other recourse is to head elsewhere. It's a risk, sure, but if you want to be paid what you are worth, then perhaps you need to just take the plunge and move to another job.
     
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  5. Coupe2T

    Coupe2T Megabyte Poster

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    What's SOL? I am sure I still have it, I just can't find it. I'm pretty sure I printed it off too but I need to go through my paperwork at home, there is tonnes of it though from when I was outsourced as you can imagine.

    I would consider going elsewhere, but technically I would end up going elsewhere as pretty much just a paper cert, and a lot of my current knowledge isn't worth much elsewhere. My main qualm is they basically expect me to help out with my current responsibilities as well as take on a lot more technical and a lot of new responsibilities and yet they seem like they are trying to edge towards paying me loads less. Which doesn't seem right however you look at it.

    I have made my position and opinion clear to them and I am now awaiting them to come back to me so negotiation if you can call it that is still ongoing. There are two guys that are both aware of the original agreement, but both have now left this project, I have asked them to contact those people to confirm but they seem to be trying to avoid it, so I am also trying to track down some contact details for them myself to contact them but as they are now on a different project it's not proving very easy.
     
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  6. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

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    See here (didn't want to type it) :)
     
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  7. Coupe2T

    Coupe2T Megabyte Poster

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    Is it something rude, as my works internet just blocked it out? lol.
     
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  8. ThomasMc

    ThomasMc Gigabyte Poster

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    I'll take the hit on this one lol
     
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  9. Coupe2T

    Coupe2T Megabyte Poster

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    Ah ok, I was thinking Sadly outta luck, but then thought that wouldn't be blocked so couldn't for the life of me think what it was! Feel a bit stupid now for not seeing that coming! lol. Maybe I should be happy with 26k! :-s

    I'm pretty sure I have it somewhere (The E-Mail that is), I just need to find it.
     
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  10. MadHatter

    MadHatter Bit Poster

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    I hope it goes all well for you mate. I am new here there are lots of more experienced people around here so feel free to discard my opinion like a router ignores LAN broadcast, so here is my 2 pence.

    I would personally invest all my resources trying to find the email, the 2 other guys who knew about it and are trying to ignore you will probably keep ignoring you. If you can't find the email than I would personally take the promotion with whatever the offer is for the time being cuz in this climate plus the new baby (congrats by the way), I wouldn't wan't to make any mistakes. Its good that negotiation is still open but if you have no choice, then accept it. BUT, complete your certificate, you will have some experience by then as well and move on...(maybe in 6 months time)

    That's just me, you do what you think is right.

    Good luck!!!
     
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  11. Coupe2T

    Coupe2T Megabyte Poster

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    Nice networking puns!! lol.

    The other two guys that know of the agreement aren't ignoring me, I am trying to find contact details for them as they have now gone on to a different project. It's the current management here that seem to be avoiding contacting them, and of course it is also them who have access to contact details etc. So I am trying to get the contact details but again quite tricky.

    The two guys who know of the agreement I have no doubt will back me up, as they are decent guys who I spoke a lot with, which is why I am trying to get the management team here to contact them. It's just all gone a bit pear shaped and awkward, but as said I am sure I must have the mail somewhere so should be able to sort it out.

    Failing that, I was of the same opinion as you, get some experience and finish my cert, then jump ship. Would rather not be forced into that position though as a) short term I will have next to no spare cash after paying for bills etc and b) I quite like my job here and know all the people and it's reasonably local, so would rather stay if I can.

    Worst come to worst I might just negotiate down a bit and see if that helps, maybe settle at about 30 or something, that will do for a year or so, then I can ask for a pay rise or look at moving on if need be.
     
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  12. Boffy

    Boffy Megabyte Poster

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    Keep your chin up, speak with HR and search for that email <even if you've only got a print out>

    I initially negotiated for a pay review after my 6 month probation but didn't realise it was left out my contract. The discussion was done over the phone while I was considering the job offer, sadly the HR exec left within a month of joining the new company.

    6 months passed and coming up to my review I spoke to HR. The newer HR manager said that he trusted my verbal agreement and got me a raise. Remember the agreement is one person's word against another, if you're worth enough to the company you might have some power to get what you deserve.
     
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  13. Coupe2T

    Coupe2T Megabyte Poster

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    Yeah cheers matey! I would like to think I have proved myself, and I can provide evidence of many occasions when things went up the shoot, and had I not been there they would of been very stuck, and I know times will come again where the same will happen. I have already highlighted that to the company and as I say, awaiting feedback. In the mean time I will defo do my best to find the mail and go from there.
     
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  14. nugget
    Honorary Member

    nugget Junior toady

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    Finding the mail is your best bet. The other two guys won't help you at all even if you find them. If they do speak up then they will be risking a black mark against them for costing the company money. even if you do find the mail there's no guarantee that they will honour it. You might be able to negotiate a small pay rise with them paying for training and exams instead of a larger payrise. As a longterm view you can then maybe move into the network position, get more experience and look for something else.
     
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  15. dales

    dales Gigabyte Poster

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    As the others have said "find that email", on the other side though I'm not convinced that a recession is a time to be worrying about moving jobs or not. Moving on is a risky business at anytime whether boom or bust, so moving on is sticking your neck out anyway and hoping for the best, its harder to find something else at the moment granted but once you do there is little difference to how it was before the bankers spent all our money.

    Another thing you have to remember is now you have a child you have a dependant and they do not get cheaper as they get older most of my wages goes on feeding my 3 little rascals and providing for them so for me a pay cut is just as bad as having no job at all especially of the magnitude you are suggesting that your pay cut will be! I'd rather jump ship tread water with the same salary and risk the probation period than take a paycut. In my part of the world unless your other half is earning loads of more than you (which more than likely she is on maternity leave so no), then there is no way I could bring up a family on circa 26K unless cardboard boxes and park benches are your chosen form of sleeping arrangement.
     
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  16. TechTock

    TechTock Byte Poster

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    I would be very careful in this financial mess of a country we are in as it's not a good time to be out of a job. If your upset then yes find the email and that should be legally binding but on the flipside it might not make you popular with management and whilst they can't legally make your life hell if they wanted to they could do things subtly like pass you over for a promotion or training. Plan B would be look for another job if your unhappy.
     
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  17. ThomasMc

    ThomasMc Gigabyte Poster

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    Tough time to be out of a Job indeed, I went from 30k+ to 0 because of liquidation
     
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