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question about "telecom and its services"

Discussion in 'Networks' started by kobem, Oct 11, 2007.

  1. kobem

    kobem Megabyte Poster

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    i am a home user (you know DSL technology maybe VDSL soon) , since yesterday in daytime
    i couldn't connect websites of foreign countries. i could connect to Only some local sites (in Turkey)
    but it would be fine in evening time. The same has occurred today. Then i thought
    this is sourced from the dns server then changed it and all things got normal!


    i have three questions :

    1- while we want to connect to a site for example in america (gamespot etc.) ,
    (request)it goes out from my home dsl modem then reach ISP in Turkey (over phone wires) after that ?

    after that from the exit router to America side , request arrives www.gamespot.com ?




    2- ımm , this one is different , In time we want to connect to a mail service(www.hotmail.com) , is the process same ? (from exit router of ISP to America ) OR do we have to use a mail server placed in ISP of Turkey?





    3- why ARE servers located in ISP?

     
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  2. stuPeas

    stuPeas Megabyte Poster

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    1. Don't forget the whole DNS process.

    2. I think Hotmail is actually WEB based, so HTTP would be used to make a request to a WEB server.

    3. I would think that, for a start, you would have to be verified as a customer, so one type of server must do this. They may employ caching servers and remote "dial up" servers.

    I'm sure there will be someone along soon with a better (probably correct!!) answer. :)
     
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  3. Boycie
    Honorary Member

    Boycie Senior Beer Tester

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    Kobem,

    You can see the route your internet packets make by opening the command prompt and entering tracert www.google.com

    There will be lots of servers at your ISP; servers that authenticate you to their network, DNS, mail servers, web servers and probably much more!
     
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  4. stuPeas

    stuPeas Megabyte Poster

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    Kobem, Have you ever considered doing the "CIW Foundations" course. I say this because it teaches a VERY BROAD range of basic topics that allow you to confidently learn more advanced stuff later on. It may be worth getting yourself a book. It really does give you a good grounding for the topics that I see you asking questions about. :D
     
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  5. hbroomhall

    hbroomhall Petabyte Poster Gold Member

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    Use tracert (on windows) to see the route your packets take.


    The same. Normaly your local mail servers won't be involved. (Hotmail being a webmail site). However - if you want to use SMTP to a server not run by your ISP it is up to the ISP whether they allow that. AOL, for example, does not.


    They need to run authentication, email, usenet news, IRC, NTP, DNS, hosting for cutomers and many other services.

    Harry.
     
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  6. kobem

    kobem Megabyte Poster

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    no!

    asking again as a reply to your answers

    1- dns process ? from dns server located in ISP ?

    2- authenticate ? for example while connecting to www.gamespot.com or www.hotmail.com
    already server they carried do the job!

    i say authentication is done by the server we connect to.

    3- a mail server is required in ISP WHY?
     
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  7. hbroomhall

    hbroomhall Petabyte Poster Gold Member

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    DNS is a distributed heirarchical database. Your ISP runs DNS for local queries, and for others asks other DNS servers. This continues until either an answer is found or no answer is found.
    You authenticate to your ISP - or, rather, your ADSL modem does. It is how they know it is you.
    Authentication happens in many different places accross the 'net, and usualy each one is separate from the others.
    So they can run an email system for their users. For very cheap accounts many ISPs don't bother to allow such accounts to use this, but business acounts will use it.

    Harry.
     
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  8. stuPeas

    stuPeas Megabyte Poster

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    1.DNS servers are located EVERYWHERE (Foundations CIW would teach you this. In fact EVERY network book will teach you this). The DNS server at your ISP is the first one you contact for a resolutution.

    2.NO!! I mean to authenticate YOU to YOUR ISP. Otherwise ANYBODY would be able to use the internet for FREE.

    3. How do you think your mail gets sent???? Google SMTP and POP. If you dont even know this mate then we are going to around in circles.
     
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  9. kobem

    kobem Megabyte Poster

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    to 1 - i know this command . while connecting to www.hotmail.com , during ISP operation,
    a mail server in ISP is used or it is given to exit router for transmitting out hotmail ?


    2- authentication is made by the server that we connect to i think?
     
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  10. hbroomhall

    hbroomhall Petabyte Poster Gold Member

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    Hotmail is a webmail system. You connect with a browser, not an email client. You connect directly to Hotmail and log-in there - that is a separate authorization from your ISPs one.
    But which server are you talking about here?

    Harry.
     
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  11. BosonMichael
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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  12. stuPeas

    stuPeas Megabyte Poster

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    If only!!

    Kobem, I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT HOTMAIL IS WEB BASED, and so uses HTTP (web) servers. Do you ACTUALY READ any responces???????????????????????????????:blink
     
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  13. kobem

    kobem Megabyte Poster

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    ooff , is it complex , why can't we get along with this?



    basically repeating step by step (for seperate two example)

    think i connect to www.mail .yahoo.co.uk

    1- i am at home , request exited from my dsl modem and reached my ISP

    2- then it was passed to exit interface of the router that will go to UK

    3- then data arrives MAIL SERVER of yahoo then i authenticate?

    isn't it like that?




    think i connect to www.gamespot.com

    1- i am at home , request exited from my dsl modem and reached my ISP

    2- then it was passed to exit interface of the router that will go to USA

    3- then data arrives WEB server of gamespot then i authenticate?

    isn't it like that?







    SO , IN MY ISP in which conditions are mail servers used ? or ftp servers?
     
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  14. warrmr

    warrmr Byte Poster

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    This is a basic how it works,
    i type in www.gamespot.com in a web browser, now my computer goes off to 192.168.2.1 and says Hello what is the IP address for www.gamespot.com. my router looks in its DNS Cache and doesnt know.
    it then asks my ISP DNS server if it knows where www.gamespot.com is. now if no one on that ISP has been to that URL then the ISP DNS doesnt know where it is.

    so now the ISP DNS asks one of the 12 root DNS servers and the root DNS server says i dont know where www.gamespot.com is but i know where .com. is, so the root dns server tells the isp dns server where the DNS server for .com. is and then the ISP DNS goes to the .com. DNS server and asks where gamespot.com is. the .com. dns server then tells the ISP DNS server where the DNS server for gamespot.com is.

    then the ISP DNS server asks the DNS server at gamespot.com where the host www. is. it then translates to an IP address that is sent back via the ISP DNS server this cashes it, this DNS server tells my router where www.gamespot.com is then my router caches it and passes it onto my client machine.

    my client machine can then go out and ask for the web pages at the address 216.239.113.172 address. then bobs your uncle you are browsing gamespot.







    the above process works any time you need to convert a host name to a ip address, as hotmail is a webmail service then the proccess is the same, but if it was a lookup for say pop.gmail.com it would have to look for a different record type.

    so when it got to the dns server for gmail.com it would say can i have your mx reccords please this will then tell me where the mail servers are.



    like everyone else has said, for autenticatoin and to provide services.

    DNS, Mail, Homepages ect
     
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  15. stuPeas

    stuPeas Megabyte Poster

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    Wow!! you realy wont be told will you!!!

    1. Yahoo is also WEBMAIL (YOU DONT HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THAT MEANS DO YOU?? :blink ), SO no "MAIL SERVER" is used (fir the third time of telling).

    3. You have to athenticate to your ISP first.You have to athenticate to your ISP first. You have to athenticate to your ISP first. You have to athenticate to your ISP first. You have to athenticate to your ISP first.


    Later, when you connect to the gamespot.com web server you will typicaly authenticate as a guest.

    You know what Kobem, I GIVE UP!!! :cry:

    EDIT: Look what you have done to me; youve made my spelling go to Sh..t. :ohmy
     
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  16. kobem

    kobem Megabyte Poster

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    ok , first i am authenticated in my ISP ,why is this needed?

    second : when are mail servers , ftp servers used BY ISP OF my country?
     
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  17. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    Ok, let me try.

    Yahoo/Hotmail are web based email servers. They DO actually use mail servers (how else do you guys think mail is sent and received?). They, however, use their own mail servers on their own internal network. They host a website that is able to access these mail servers and retrieve the emails associated with your account. Kobem, in your (very basic) diagram of the internet presented here, it would look like this:

    1. You are at home and type in www.hotmail.com.
    2. This request is sent to the DNS server on your ISP and (following the method that warrmr detailed) is supplied with the location on the internet of the hotmail website.
    3. Your browser then takes the location given, and sends its request to that location (This leaves the ISP's internal network out onto the internet as a whole, through the ISP's 'Exit Router')
    4. Your browser loads up the hotmail website.
    5. You log into hotmail. This causes the website to communicate with Hotmails own internal mail servers to retrieve your emails.

    On the matter of authentication, as has been stated previously, the authentication happens on many levels. Firstly, your Router authenticates to your ISP's servers. This allows you through their network and onto the internet (as well as access to their own resources, like their own internal mail server). If you attempt to log into an external website (ie, not belonging to your ISP), it will ask you for authentication (such as a login page). This authentication takes place on THEIR servers, not the ISP's.

    The ISP's servers (mail/ftp/etc) are their own internal resources, which they make available to their customers. They will only take part in your internet experience if you call on them. For instance, if you have a pipex account, you will get a username@pipex.com or some such address. When you access THIS email address, then the ISP's email servers will play a part. If you access Hotmail, then the ISP's mail servers have absolutley no part to play in your retrieval of emails, etc.

    ISP's only require mail servers if they provide an email service to their customers. There are some ISPs out there that provide only a connection to the internet. In this case, they will have no mail server for their customers. They only require a mail server, if they intent to provide their customers with email addresses themselves.

    Does this help at all?
     
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  18. kobem

    kobem Megabyte Poster

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    is it wrong to download this from net as pdf ?
     
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  19. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    umm.... well... yes! Unless you buy it from a proper vendor in e-book format (which I dont think you can at present), then its an illegal copy, and a breach of copyright laws.
     
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  20. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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