Quartet!

Oh man! Ad-blocking software has been detected! :'(

This website is run by the community, for the community... and it needs advertisements in order to keep running. Blocking our ads means your killing our stats!
Please disable your ad-block, or become a premium member to hide all advertisements and this notice.

Hello everyone,

So today I passed my last exam for MTA IT Infrastructure, Security Fundamentals.

Have been very quick getting my certs recently; yesterday I passed Network Fundamentals, and almost two weeks ago I passed Windows Server Administration Fundamentals.

That means I now have all four MTA certificates that are recommended before starting to learn for MCSA (according to Microsoft). The whole list of certs I achieved since February this year is quite long I have to admit:

• Microsoft Office Specialist Word 2013
• Microsoft Office Specialist Excel 2013
• Microsoft Office Specialist PowerPoint 2013
• Microsoft Office Specialist Word 2013 Expert
• Microsoft Office Specialist Master
• Microsoft Technology Associate: Windows Operating System Fundamentals
• Microsoft Technology Associate: Windows Server Administration Fundamentals
• Microsoft Technology Associate: Network Fundamentals
• Microsoft Technology Associate: Security Fundamentals

All certs that aren't part of my training are in italic. See, I had some time left and I love getting more out of myself. So I never mind going further. And you know what's funny? Even though the non-italic certs aren't part of my training, I'm still the only one in my class who managed to 'catch them all'. Teachers have been very excited about this lately. They think a student like me is very unique. Can't give them wrong, especially if I take a look at some of my classmates. :P

Anyway, the fact that I am so quick with all of this, means I will be able to graduate one half year earlier! After that I am going for the next level: Network Administration. At the moment I do something else. Not really sure how to translate it to English (since the Netherlands has more variety in IT training programs), but it's definitely something like IT Support/Desktop Support Technician. And since we've had Cisco as a subject I got very interested in networking. In fact, earlier this week I 'passed' it and achieved a certificate of course completion (CCNA R&S: Introduction to Networking).

That's why I want to make a career in that field. I'm not planning on actually getting an office job in the field of networking (just can't sit still for a long time, haha), I want to become teacher in networking 'when I grow up'.

Anyway, that's my story for now. Just wanted to share it with you guys.

 

Oh man! Ad-blocking software has been detected! :'(

This website is run by the community, for the community... and it needs advertisements in order to keep running. Blocking our ads means your killing our stats!
Please disable your ad-block, or become a premium member to hide all advertisements and this notice.

You may want to slow down with the MCSA etc, it's all well and good having certifications but where is your experience? Ideally you should be using further certifications as a way to prove experience, things like the MTA are great for introducing you to the technology but exams like the MCSA aren't entry level certs, they are designed for experienced engineers.

 

That's why MCSA is included in my next training and not my current one.

By the way, if you with 'experience' refer to work experience I just don't have a choice. See, my training is different than you might think it is. It's not like it's a course or something. It's actual education, school. It is part of my curriculum. From what I know I will have training in the following stuff during that training:

• MCSA: Windows 8.1
• MCSA: Windows Server 2012
• CCNA 2: Routing and Switching Essentials
• CCNA 3: Scaling Networks
• CCNA 4: Connecting Networks
• CCNA Security
• CCDA
• Aries (not sure what modules exactly though)
• And even more, but mostly smaller things like MOS Outlook

As you can see, it's quite a lot. Especially considering that I will only have 1.5 year to complete all of that. The good thing though, is that you are not required to pass the exams. The most important thing is that you pass for the Final from the digital learning stuff (NetAcad for Cisco e.g.)

Of course, and it might be good to note that as well, it's not only theory and stuff. We will have a lot of practice. For MTA Windows OS Fundamentals and Windows Server Administration Fundamentals we had practice cases where you have to install and configure Windows-based systems and troubleshoot them for example. Will be no different with MCSA and all the Cisco modules. And that's because I'm in Vocational Education, as they call it here.

 

Congrats on getting all those certs I recently passed OS Fundamentals. I have to agree with Simon though.. saying that though my local college actually offers MCSA as a training course come to think of it. If you can study and pass the MCSA go for it but they are intended for those with experience. Are you based outside the UK? as I havent heard of MTAs being taught in the form of school education..?

 

I'm indeed based outside the UK, the Netherlands to be exact.

And yes, we do get MTA as part of my education. Keep in mind, it's not like secondary education. As I mentioned, I'm in vocational education. You see, there preschool, primary school, pre-vocational secondary education and then there is vocational education. Not sure how to explain it. But I am not in education where they teach you stuff like chemistry, math and that sort of subjects. Unless of course, you are doing a training where you need it for. I am in training to become Desktop Support Technican (or how you would really call it).

It does make sense that you get MTA, Cisco etc. etc. There's also more general subjects like 'supporting system users', 'managing and maintaining hardware and software' and 'install of hardware and software'. But from some specific moment you're getting into these subjects a little deeper with - in this case - MTA. On the next level it's more about things such as creating a technical and functional design used to implement PCs and networks. But of course you need knowledge about Windows, Windows Server, Cisco, Citrix and so forth. That's why there's MTA, MCSA, CCNA etc. etc.

I know it sounds very complicated now. Just don't know how to explain it. But basically, all I wanna say is that I am in Vocational Education, which is really everything about getting into a specific area: IT, financial administration, legal, education, health etc. Kind of like university for example, but at a much lower level. We have MTA and MCSA for instance, on university it would be a lot more like MCSE. Get my point?

Hope you guys understand how it works here.

---

Oh, and by the way... Even though I learned all of MTA myself, our teacher explains everything about it as well. He is MCSA in Windows 7 and CCNA as I recall. Also, he is an MCT. On the higher education levels in my school (there's level 1, 2, 3 and 4 - I'm in level 3 and my next one will be level 4) the teachers will have certs like MCSE, MCSD, CCNA/CCNP/CCDA/CCNA Security and so forth.

You know what? I think it's a good idea to read this page of our government. It tells everything you need to know about the kind of education I am in. It explains it better than I do. Link: http://www.government.nl/issues/education/secondary-vocational-education-mbo

On that same page, in the right pane you'll find a link to some information about Higher Education too, if you're interested in a comparison with the (Secondary) Vocational Education.

Here there's even information about the training I am in: http://www.ecabo.nl/sites/default/files/English/2014/ICT-management-assistant-EQF-3.pdf

Network Manager at level 4 as well: http://www.ecabo.nl/sites/default/files/English/2014/Network-Manager-EQF-4.pdf

Both don't tell anything about MTA or MCSA, but that's also because it kind of differs from school to school what subjects they offer. Another school in my area that offers the same training doesn't offer Microsoft Office Specialist for example. They do offer training in the Office suite, but you can't do any exam unless you pay it yourself and find an exam center yourself. I just got luck my school offers the ability to do MTA, MOS and MCSA exams.

 

You missunderstand, it's great that you're in education, but what good does having these enterprise certifications if you have no enterprise experience? All you have done is 'learn' about it, you haven't 'lived' it.

I for one when hiring people want someone with the experience and perhaps a certification or two, I don't want someone who has simply come out of school with exams under their belt because I can't trust their capabilities, as an example, Microsoft exams generally offer a couple of answers that appear right, one of those is the Microsoft answer, the other is what I call the real world answer, all you have done is learnt about the Microsoft way (or Cisco) way of doing things.

How can I take you seriously if you come to me with a Cisco Design qualification if you haven't even properly administered a Cisco network?
How can you understand all of the interoperabilities between the Cisco infrastructure and other components (as an example, Firewalls, Switches, IPAM, Servers, Virtualisation etc)?

I want my certified people to have that experience, yes the MTA is the exception (along with the A+ and N+ as well as VCA's), moving to the MCSA\MCSE\CCNA\CCDA\VCP etc I sure as anything don't want someone with NO ENTERPRISE experience.

 

Give the kid a break SimonD, hes happy to have passed his current exams and gained some basic certs, I'm sure your view on the correct way to"do certifications will greatly help him in the future but seeing as hes way off submitting his CV to your desk I think what hes doing at the age of 18 is fantastic. I say great work on learning what you have done so far, yes think about backing it up with some real world experience and maybe look at some volunteer work, not only will that give you on the job work experience but some life experience too.

 

OK Simon

 

Look Simon, I get your point. I totally understand you, work experience is incredibly important when doing MCSA or CCNA. But again, it's just the way it works here. You know, last week I watched a presentation from some guy who just finished his traineeship for Network Management. And he said that one of the things he learned during that traineeship, is getting the actual experience And yes, that's some kind of 'enterprise experience'. Again, you also learn this with the training itself. In fact, you won't pass any MCSA or Cisco module before you can show that you have that experience. I had to do this as well once I passed the Final for CCNA 1 Introduction to Networks. Had to configure a switch via the CLI. Was pretty basic stuff though, but you get the idea.

And again about that, I'm in Vocational Education. It's all about practice. Theory is very important, but without the practice you won't get far.

--

The problem is just, that if I wouldn't be able to get my CCNA or MCSA during a training, I just won't be able to gain actual enterprise experience, with the exception for the traineeship. Most enterprises, at least here in the Netherlands have a lot of requirements if you want to join their company. Recently I was curious about that and took a look at some jobs available for those who are Network Manager. Besides the fact that you need an even higher level of education (not Vocational Education, but Higher Education with Bachelor or even Master), you have to be CCNA, MCSA - sometimes even CCNP or MCSE - ITIL certified and all that sort of stuff.

I won't be able to get a job if I don't have any of those certs. That's why they give you the ability to earn them at school. Theory + practice + traineeship(s) will make sure you should be ready to have the right skills. If you don't pass any of those exam.. Well, then you at least tried it. And of course, a score of 67% isn't quite bad. Most importantly you should just have that practice experience.

So, I don't know how to make it even more clear that getting MCSA/CCNA or any kind of higher level certification. Again, I do understand your point about how important real world experience is. But these days, if you want to get somewhere you need those certs already. That I will graduate for Network Management without those certs would mean I am not a true Network Manager. I am, when I'm able to achieve those certs. At least, to companies. It's just that.

If you still don't see it this way, well then I feel kind of sorry for you.. :$

 

Congrats on the passes !

I have to agree with the others however, I'm a little concerned where all this is going, in terms of mixing certification with education.

The certification vendors have their own agenda, quite separate from an academic viewpoint or the needs of a real business. Introducing young inexperienced minds to this is a double edged sword.

 

So, then let me explain it to you as well. ;)

At my kind of school it's all about practice. Theory is one big part of the training (and it takes most time as well), but you learn an awful low about practicing with stuff. It could be anything. Basic stuff such as assembling PCs. At the highest level of my school (IT Management or Network Management) you'll even learn assembling a server. Not just one time, but many times. Until the teacher can tell that you now how to do it properly without any mistake.

Than comes the 'enterprise experience'. The teachers will always try to let it look like you're working in a business. They could say "I want you to set up a router with 100 hosts that have access to a few servers". We use a tool called Packet Tracer for that. Should be familiar to you, I think. We use it to practice with routers, switches, servers and that sort of stuff. It's never like you should just do something. The teacher will give you a paper with all things that have to be done. Forgot something, try it again. Until you've done everything properly of course.

The real world experience comes with the traineeships. Under the eye of somebody with longer experience you will have to do a lot things. In my previous post I told about some guy who finished his traineeship for Network Management. I forgot to tell what he actually had to do, so I'll do that now. He had to use analyze the complete network to check how he could properly use ACLs on all devices. And after that, he had to make some kind of a plan where he actually kind of implemented ACL on everything. Didn't understand much of it, so can't really explain it.

But the point it, we will get that work experience. You guys don't really seem to understand that, as I read from your replies. That's a bit of disappointing, because I am trying to explain to you how it works here.

I am not here to bash you guys, but then please don't act like I haven't told that we do gain that work experience, alright? Thank you.

---

By the way, for what it's worth: not everyone passed MCSA or CCNA at my school. Mostly those people who fail just don't learn and don't have done enough practice. But those who do learn a lot (like me, with the exception for MTA Networking and Security Fundamentals) it isn't a problem at all.

 

I wasn't trying to be down on you or your achievement, its an incredible achievement and you should be justly proud.

I went to a vocational college in the UK, I got a HND, that is a vocational qualification in our country, obviously the UK is not the same as the Netherlands, your training may be better and more hands on than UK vocational training. When I did my training, certs were in their infancy so it wasn't much of an issue, hardly anyone had them and colleges certainly weren't interested in them.

My concerns are real, I learnt to code at college by writing 'real' software, college is never the same as the real world, however good the intentions of the instructors.

As has been mentioned, most training exercises will be deliberately simple. In the real world you have to deal with crap they wouldn't train you on, you have heterogeneous environments, with solutions from many vendors, possibly built up over 20+ years.

Then there is the academic aspect, just because a vendor has one opinion, it doesn't mean the wider community shares the same views. Ultimately they want to sell stuff, so they will mix in a fair amount of BS to get you to buy into their schemes.

In my world its called 'Marchitecture'.

This propaganda is designed to fool experienced professionals, they are very diligent, there is simply no way someone without experience is going to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. You therefore risk indoctrination rather than education.

Ever wonder why last years product V1 was 'brilliant' on release, but now they have V2 to sell they are admitting it was crap ?

 

77

And I wasn't trying to be down on your reply, I was just getting a little bit 'sick' of that SimonD not understanding how it works here. ;)

As you say, it might be that the UK simply isn't just the same as the Netherlands. Here we value certifications way higher. That's why most schools here (vocational, higher and even universities) offer them as part of your training. But on vocational education they let you start from the beginning, and that is of course MTA. Even if you would start on the highest level (4 - I am in level 3) you'd start with MTA. After that you'll go further with MCSA. No pass for the exam? Just try it again. No pass after the retake? Well, then you're just screwed. Means you don't are eligible for that job you want so bad. May sound very bluntly. But again, that's how it works in the Netherlands.

It's also that you're saying that you did you're training when hardly anyone had certificates. That's totally different now and in the Netherlands. Again, the value of certs is incredibly high here. You can't just pass school and find a job you like. You need to earn the certs. Sometimes, companies will at least offer you the ability to earn those certs if you don't have them yet but you do have had the proper training and practice knowledge. But that's it.

 

Some UK vocational colleges do offer certs now, so do many online universities, like I said this has both good and bad implications.
I wouldn't value them so highly, that is exactly my point, ultimately they are often designed and managed by the marketing department, not the technical or education department of a cert vendor.

The real value is the education you are getting from experienced folk, from a western university. Any paperwork you can get from your college should mean far more than certs because they are monitoring your performance more effectively than any cert program. They should also be giving it to you from 'the horses mouth', so ideally they would be training you outside the cert vendors curriculum.

 

You mean like fifa all the way through. Fifa 10 is the best game we have ever produced. Then comes fifa 11, this is way better than fifa 10 as we found that the engine driving the game was rather substandard etc blah blah blah.

 

When I was a vehicle mechanic all those years ago, we did stuff in a similar way to what your pdf's relate to, i e the same format. One day a week was college and then 4 days a week was actually working in a garage, carrying out lots of repairs, MOT's and diagnosing faults etc. The they were called NVQ's and there was also the levels, 1, 2, 3 and 4 etc, 4 being the toughest one so to speak.

I think if I had my time again, I would maybe go down that route in IT. Instead i got into IT via uni. Without trying to put a dampner on your certs, anyone can sit an exam, revise like mad and pass etc. I mean from what you have achieved can you honestly say you could troubleshoot an issue in any of those certs you have gained????

Ed

 

That is a matter of what kind of issue. I mean, thanks to those certs I am able to troubleshoot basic issues. For example, during the Networking Fundamentals exam I've got one question where they showed you an image of CMD with the ipconfig command executed. Based on the information it showed you had to tell what the problem was, because the user was not able to connect to the Internet. Turned out no default gateway was set. :P

Do have to say it's Cisco where I learned all of that from (I did Networking Fundamentals right after I was done with CCNA 1, without learning for MTA specifically).

But you get the idea. It's mostly basic stuff. But guess what, MTA entry-level. Makes sense, right?

By the way, I never sat an exam, failed and revised things I had wrong. Only failed one exam, Windows Server Administration Fundamentals. But I only did learn a little more from the theory AND practice stuff. After that, I passed.

But anyway... The real troubleshooting comes with MCSA of course. But that's why you start with MTA: to understand the fundamentals of - in my case - Windows, Windows Server, networking and security.

 

It does help but one thing that experience has taught me with IT, is that no one day is the same, which is possibly why I like it so much. If you get bored with one section, you can go onto another etc