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Oh. My. God.

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by zebulebu, May 18, 2007.

  1. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    I have just visited CertGuard for the first time. Very good site - the design & graphics etc leaves a bit to be desired, but the content there is so good I spent about an hour trawling through it.

    Now I'm sure people will laugh at me here (me with my 133t rep and all that:rolleyes: ) but I discovered something there that, although I had heard about before, I'd never actually seen. Apparently the rumours I'd heard about people taking your cert tests for you and passing them are not only true, but there are sites OPENLY ADVERTISING ON THE NET that will provide this service! I went to the 'About' certification site and the very first link I clicked on took me to one of them (I won't repost the link here for obvious reasons) where, for a fee of around $3000, you can 'get certified - no test, no cramming, no study'.

    That basically makes my MCSE, which I took an entire year to study for full time, absolutely worthless. How many people are out there that have 'earned' their MCSE in this way? Jesus Henry Christ, this makes even braindumpers look good - at least they had to memorise the frickin answers before taking their exams :x :x

    Now I know why my 70-216 instructor laughed and said 'there are far worse things going on than that' when I told him about a couple of dumpers on my CBT course...
     
    Certifications: A few
    WIP: None - f*** 'em
  2. Raffaz

    Raffaz Kebab Lover Gold Member

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    WOW! never heard of that, thats shocking:eek:
     
    Certifications: A+, MCP, MCDST, AutoCAD
    WIP: Rennovating my house
  3. BosonMichael
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Yep... welcome to the other shady side of certifications: gunmen. :dry

    Unfortunately, NOT getting certifications is NOT an option, whether you believe the MCSE to be "worthless" or not. If we don't continue to certify (and learn the "right way" so that we're actually able to DO the job when we are given that opportunity), the cheaters will have an edge over us simply because they'll have the certifications and we won't. Thus, just "giving up" isn't a viable option. The best thing we can do is inform people about the dangers that IT certification cheating has on the industry.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  4. onoski

    onoski Terabyte Poster

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    Well said Michael, at the end of the day the dumpers and cheaters would be caught out in the interview stage if they do land an interview that is. However, on the flip side what Michael has stated above is very true. I suppose it all depends on individuals but I for one want to have an edge by studying the right way for certs to enhance my future career prospects.
     
    Certifications: MCSE: 2003, MCSA: 2003 Messaging, MCP, HNC BIT, ITIL Fdn V3, SDI Fdn, VCP 4 & VCP 5
    WIP: MCTS:70-236, PowerShell
  5. Sparky
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    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    Yup, just shows what a farce IT certification has turned into to be honest. I reckon we will still have posts like this 10 years from now...

    Anyways its Friday so its all good! :biggrin
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Exchange 2007\2010
  6. Sparky
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    Lets be realistic here, people who use BDs get interviews as they have the ‘certs’ and may have some commercial experience.

    Once in the job it is *very* difficult to get rid of someone who you know isn’t up to the job (as they used BDs) as you need to have meetings, issue ‘official’ warnings etc etc. If you don’t expect legal action.
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Exchange 2007\2010
  7. Headache

    Headache Gigabyte Poster

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    I have heard about this phenomenon of cert buying and I consider it very dishonourable.
     
    Certifications: CCNA
    WIP: CCNP
  8. nXPLOSi

    nXPLOSi Terabyte Poster

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    Wow, although I know these sorts of things go on in every walk of education, it just seems unbelievable how open they are about it.

    Problem for these people are that when they're tested in the interviews, they will fall very very short.
     
    Certifications: A+, Network+, Security+, MCSA 2003 (270, 290, 291), MCTS (640, 642), MCSA 2008
    WIP: MCSA 2012
  9. tripwire45
    Honorary Member

    tripwire45 Zettabyte Poster

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    I've heard of this practice. It's one of the reasons you have to show a photo ID at the exam center before sitting the test. I guess part of the fee is for the fake ID.
     
    Certifications: A+ and Network+
  10. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    It's not difficult at all: if you can't do the job, you're released. That's why many companies have a 3-month probationary period for new hires.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  11. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Only if the interviewer is good. If the interviewer is as poor as his/her interviewee, they'll not be able to detect their true lack of knowledge and experience.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  12. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    Someone posted a site a year or two ago from the States where you could buy a certificate.

    So that's not even the certification - just the piece of paper with your name on that you can hang on the wall.

    How pointless is that? :blink
     
    Certifications: MCT, MCTS, i-Net+, CIW CI, Prince2, MSP, MCSD
  13. Sparky
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    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    That’s true, unfortunately when it goes past that stage it’s difficult.
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Exchange 2007\2010
  14. Arroryn
    Honorary Member

    Arroryn we're all dooooooomed

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    I personally think that you have to be at least mildly narrow-minded to think that this kind of thing doesn't go on, and very tunnel-visioned if you only imagine it going on in IT.

    If you earn your Cert the right way and go about your work in the way you know is best, your Cert will never be 'devalued'. This kind of cheating rubbish goes on in virtually every profession on other, in all different types of manners and means.

    Do you not remember kids in your class at school getting help on their homework? It's an early example, and sure, kids aren't really going to think of the 'impact' they're having overall. But their contemporaries didn't call them 'lying cheating scumbags' for cheating through GCSEs.

    This goes up to A Level and Degree. You can go on to various sites on the web and download essays and theses on any great variety of subjects; for a small fee, degrees can be passed with the least of effort.

    Even down to driving theory tests. Why do you think one of the reasons for bringing in a photo ID driving license was? People had been sitting driving theory and even the actual driving tests on behalf of the people that couldn't be buggered to go and sit behind the wheel of a car and learn. Now that is a scary thought.

    But from A Level to degree, computing, driving, hell, even biomedical science, you will get people who 'cheat'. A lot of them will see it as 'making it easier for themselves'. They will think that they know their stuff, and what they are doing is just guaranteeing a higher grade; a 2:1 ability student, for example, bumping their way up to a 1:1.

    What is upsetting and depressing is that not all of these people will be found out.

    But if your moral standing puts you against this, like BosonM says, you have to stand firm. Keep studying, and keep putting your 110% in at work. People that care make a difference. If I see someone going through life half-a$$ed, then I feel less inclined to give a rat's a$$ about them.

    Just keep going, keep studying, and keep coming to places like Certforums. Everyone knows this forum's stance against all forms of cheating. And long may the encouragement of study and hard-won success continue :thumbleft
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, 70-410, 70-411
    WIP: Modern Languages BA
  15. Raffaz

    Raffaz Kebab Lover Gold Member

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    How do people manage to get round this when you need some form of photo ID when you go for an exam?
     
    Certifications: A+, MCP, MCDST, AutoCAD
    WIP: Rennovating my house
  16. Arroryn
    Honorary Member

    Arroryn we're all dooooooomed

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    Fake IDs :rolleyes:

    If they have no morality as far as the exam goes, let's not assume they'd be saints elsewhere in life.
     
    Certifications: A+, N+, MCDST, 70-410, 70-411
    WIP: Modern Languages BA
  17. Quarky

    Quarky Byte Poster

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    I saw a woman doing a crossword today and she was sitting down with a Thesaurus by her side which she frequently used to get the answers in order to finish the puzzle. She was pleased that she'd finished it and thats fine by me, if she's happy then i'm happy. Nothing wrong with that.

    But...

    It struck me how much of a similar situation it was to Braindumping. The Thesaurus is a similar tool to a Braindump (maybe not as bad, but the principle is the same).

    Personally, i think that if you need to go down this route, then you won't get very far at all.

    I'd propose that anyone that has earned their MCSE through valid methods wouldn't be concerned at all as they should know that it takes a hell of a lot more than 4 letters to be able to be competent at a job. As long as i can study hard and progress i won't be feeling too stressed out about other guys cheating their way upward.

    After all, take the Thesaurus away from the woman and she loses the ability to finish the crossword. There will undoubtably come a point where a Thesuarus is unavailable, what happens then ? She can't do the crossword.

    Food for thought.

    :D
     
    Certifications: A+,270,271,272 (MCDST)
    WIP: Master CIW
  18. Phoenix
    Honorary Member

    Phoenix 53656e696f7220 4d6f64

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    Im not 100% on that analogy
    a core skill in any job is information gathering, research, FINDING the answers to problems
    so using a thesauras is more like using google rather than a braindump

    a braindump would be glancing at todays paper on the shelf and then filling in all the answers for yesturdays from memory
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCITP, VCP
    WIP: > 0
  19. Quarky

    Quarky Byte Poster

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    Lol Phoenix, talk about 'picking flies' - you've taken my post a bit too serious i think.

    I know its not a classic analogy but i'm sure you get what i was trying to say.

    It was just to point out the benefits and gains of working things out for yourself, then to progress with those gains, that woman could have been using a Thesaurus all of her life with no real gain.

    It was more a philosophical subject that had a small bearing on learning than a direct IT comparison.

    I was wondering who would be first to try and pick it apart.

    :D
     
    Certifications: A+,270,271,272 (MCDST)
    WIP: Master CIW
  20. wizard

    wizard Petabyte Poster

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    Remember before photo driving licences were introduced and when the tests just consisted of a practical?

    People were paid to take driving tests for other people.
     
    Certifications: SIA DS Licence
    WIP: A+ 2009

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