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Network engineer comparison

Discussion in 'Employment & Jobs' started by gionny, Feb 28, 2012.

  1. gionny

    gionny Bit Poster

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    Hi guys,
    I want to ask you main differences between Italy and UK network engineer market.
    Unfortunately I know the sad italian reality in this field. I hope in UK things work better because after three years I'm really tired of this situation , at this point it'd be better to change this kind of job.
    Things I detest while working as network engineer in Italy are :
    - lack of training
    - most jobs are outsourced between many companies for example :
    the job place is in a service provider , so you simply work together with the Telecom company,but the Telecom company doen't hire you because of wonderful article 18 , which establishes if a company hires an employee he can never dismiss him for the rest of his life.So the situation is :
    Telecom company 1 buys services (human resources - workers) from another company2 who buyes from company3 which makes you an illegal contract with very low wage , without sickness right and without paid holyday days ; and that's not all ; since wages are very low ,and since italian taxation is very high they give you a part of your salary as black money (without paying taxes) , making it result as benefits.And that's not all , contracts are very short time term , approximately 3 or six months and if the Telecom company terminate the contract with the company2 and the like a chain company2 with company3 you loose your job and considering the high degree of italian unemployment , you need the " Pope blessing " to find out another.

    I want to know if in UK situation for middle skilled profile is the same.
    Thank you for answers.
     
    Certifications: CCNA , CCNP , CCIP
    WIP: CCNA Voice , JNCIA , CCIE R&S
  2. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

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    Ok...

    Training is down to the individual person as well as the organisation. You can not expect the company to pay for all your training and development needs and wants.

    Not all, but there is a percentage of jobs that are contracted, fixed term

    There are good paying jobs in the UK (in the IT field), however salaries on the whole aren't as good as they were pre-recession. Some people I know have taken a 1/4 to a 1/3 percent pay cut for the same job (after it was "re-evaluated").

    As for taxes and National Insurance (NI) contributions, you can knock of about 1/3 of your salary and from 2012 even more will be taken off (according to news reports) when companies will be forced to enrol staff into private pension schemes.

    We have those in the UK too.

    Well we have that in the UK too. If a business is not making money, we (in the UK) have a process that leads to redundancy, people here can lose their jobs.



    I guess it depends...

    1. Companies are still outsourcing to companies abroad

    2. There is an immigration cap (from countries outside the EU), but because of this Intra-company transfers increased (this allows companies that have sites abroad to bring in people to the UK)*

    *I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing.

    3. Every fortnight (2 weeks) you heard about another big company that has gone bankrupt or have made redundancies.

    4. There are jobs out there, maybe not as highly paid pre-recession.

    5. From what I've heard the UK ecomony isn't as bad as the Italian economy, however it's not as good as the Germany economy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
    Certifications: CITP, PGCert, BSc, HNC, LCGI, PTLLS, MCT, MCITP, MCTS, MCSE, MCSA:M, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, MTA, MCAS, MOS (Master), A+, N+, S+, ACA, VCA, etc... & 2nd Degree Black Belt
    WIP: PGDip
  3. gionny

    gionny Bit Poster

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    I don't know but statistics say UK market in this sector seems better ; for example if you do a web search in two main sites for job advertisements , you will look the difference.
    if you look for the word "cisco" in it.indeed.com and in indeed.co.uk you will find :
    -italy 624 jobs found
    -UK 12071 jobs found
    IT's a big difference!!!
    But the worst thing is that if you in ITaly work for a big company , for example you work in BT telecom service provider together BT staff,it's difficult you get hired from BT but you have a contract with companies that eat your money...
    I wanna do an example so you can understand better the situation , because I'm curious if such things happen in UK...

    I work in an office that give networking support for an important italian ministry , and I work all the day with HP network engineers to deploy new configurations , tshoot problems ecc..So HP knows as i work , and also if they know i'm a good worker i can't enhance my career because I have a contrat with a sub company that get paid by HP , but that won't know about my performances , but its only interest is that HP doesn't complain...
    Hp pays about 400 euros a day for me , and my company that do nothing for the whole work , the only thing they do is to provide an interview with HP and then steal the most amount of the sum that HP pays for my work...

    This is the same situation also in UK ??? I hope not because this is a legalized *****
     
    Certifications: CCNA , CCNP , CCIP
    WIP: CCNA Voice , JNCIA , CCIE R&S
  4. SimonD

    SimonD Terabyte Poster Moderator

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    Welcome to the world of sub contracting, unfortunately it's the same all over the world. I recently caused one guy to be sacked because of his gross incompetence and complete lack of knowledge, the thing is tho that he came through a service provider who was charging him out at £700 pd, I can honestly tell you he wasn't worth £250, now of course he wouldn't have been getting that £700 because that will be taken by the sub contractor but.. well it's kinda tough because if you don't want the work there are plenty of other people out there who are more than willing to do it.

    I would also say that your 12000 jobs in the UK thing, imagine how many people are going for those roles, I know of roles where they close the books on it when they have had 50 candidates, not because those candidates are the best but simply because the agents concerned are over burdened with CV's.

    My honest advice is this, if you're in a role and can afford to live on what they are paying you, stay in the role.
     
    Certifications: CNA | CNE | CCNA | MCP | MCP+I | MCSE NT4 | MCSA 2003 | Security+ | MCSA:S 2003 | MCSE:S 2003 | MCTS:SCCM 2007 | MCTS:Win 7 | MCITP:EDA7 | MCITP:SA | MCITP:EA | MCTS:Hyper-V | VCP 4 | ITIL v3 Foundation | VCP 5 DCV | VCP 5 Cloud | VCP6 NV | VCP6 DCV | VCAP 5.5 DCA
    WIP: VCP6-CMA, VCAP-DCD and Linux + (and possibly VCIX-NV).
  5. dmarsh

    dmarsh Terabyte Poster

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    I'd say the UK doesn't sound so different. We have a contract market that works along similar lines. We have similar income tax.

    We don't have secure perm jobs or unions with the influence of those in mainland western Europe, therefore companies are less worried about perm hires, until you get past two years service there is not a lot to stop them sacking you.

    Jobsites are effectively just big notice boards, and the people putting up the notices are goons that are little better than monkeys.

    Its common for :-

    1. Fake or non existent job adverts
    2. Duplicated job adverts
    3. Old adverts for jobs that are filled or were only advertised to meet 'fairness criteria'
    4. Training courses advertised as jobs
    5. Wildly inaccurate or inept job descriptions.
    etc

    You get the idea, so they may or may not be an indicator of all sorts of things...
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
    Certifications: CITP, BSc, HND, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, N+, Sec+, Proj+, Server+, Linux+, MCTS, MCPD, MCSA, MCITP, CCDH
  6. TheITCrowd

    TheITCrowd Kilobyte Poster

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    Hmmm.....

    I am full time but work along side contactors on several projects who earn alot more than me, I dont earn a fortune but I dont consider myself as being on a low wage for my role. Most of our contractors are on rolling contracts so they do ok. Yes they could have thier contacts end at anytime but I could also be made redundent at any time as well!
     
    Certifications: Network + |CCNA |MCTS-70-680,MCTS-70-401, MCTS-70-656, MCTS-70-351 |HP AIS ProCurve Networking -2011 | HP2-896 |VCD-CP27|JNCIA |Hewlett Packard ASE - Network Infrastructure (2011)
    WIP: 642-813
  7. gionny

    gionny Bit Poster

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    you didn't convince me. I'm sure that the situation is better in UK , maybe not at the beginning because maybe i should start over (without mention my english communications skills , all I learned come from Cisco Juniper books , but maybe it's not too bad) but in the long range I could have some satisfactions.
    I think this is a job that in my land doesn't pay ; too much companies involved in a contract that eat all you earn , lack of meritocracy , lack of people who are curious and don't matter to learn , to improve... I don't know , maybe I will do a big crap quitting my job but it's a change I want to do.
    And another thing .. did you notice that on every cisco book there is ever an asian or a black guy?maybe in the past they did my same choice.I hope not to become a beggar at Oxford station in the next years :) :)
    what do you think about Italians do you know someone?
     
    Certifications: CCNA , CCNP , CCIP
    WIP: CCNA Voice , JNCIA , CCIE R&S
  8. TheITCrowd

    TheITCrowd Kilobyte Poster

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    The person on this book is not male! In fact Im still trying to find a network engineer that looks like her!

    Implementing Cisco IP Routing (ROUTE) Foundation Learning Guide: Foundation learning for the ROUTE 642-902 Exam (Foundation Learning Guides) eBook: Diane Teare: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store
     
    Certifications: Network + |CCNA |MCTS-70-680,MCTS-70-401, MCTS-70-656, MCTS-70-351 |HP AIS ProCurve Networking -2011 | HP2-896 |VCD-CP27|JNCIA |Hewlett Packard ASE - Network Infrastructure (2011)
    WIP: 642-813
  9. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

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    Judging by news reports, the UK is in a better position than Italy, but that doesn't mean that the job market is great over here.

    The UK now has 2.67 million unemployed. If you're looking for countries that have a lower rate of unemployment then check out Germany, Austria and Luxembourg... In fact Italy has an overall lower unemployment proportion (at 7.8 ) compared to the UK (12.7).

    However if you wish to try your luck and/or skill in the UK, well that's up to you :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2012
    Certifications: CITP, PGCert, BSc, HNC, LCGI, PTLLS, MCT, MCITP, MCTS, MCSE, MCSA:M, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, MTA, MCAS, MOS (Master), A+, N+, S+, ACA, VCA, etc... & 2nd Degree Black Belt
    WIP: PGDip
  10. gionny

    gionny Bit Poster

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    working in Germany ? there would be only a little problem , speaking german language.. for me it's just a miracle to sustain a phone job interview in english in the next few months..
    I firmly believe language will be the biggest problem
     
    Certifications: CCNA , CCNP , CCIP
    WIP: CCNA Voice , JNCIA , CCIE R&S
  11. wagnerk
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    wagnerk aka kitkatninja Moderator

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    Well whatever you decide, good luck :)
     
    Certifications: CITP, PGCert, BSc, HNC, LCGI, PTLLS, MCT, MCITP, MCTS, MCSE, MCSA:M, MCSA, MCDST, MCP, MTA, MCAS, MOS (Master), A+, N+, S+, ACA, VCA, etc... & 2nd Degree Black Belt
    WIP: PGDip
  12. Ophelia

    Ophelia New Member

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    gionny I am in the same situation... I am from Greece. I am so disappointed for the future that these people (the Government) want for me and i am seriously thinking of going to the UK although i know that it is going to be hard in finding a job there too. In my case it is even worst because i am a postgraduate and i cannot even start my career because in Greece there aren't many companies that hire graduates (maybe there are 5 companies) and they hire people once or twice per year. 80-90% of my friends that are in the same age as me ~26 do not have a job and it is so sad because we all finished university, masters etc.. I really understand how you are feeling.. I believe that you should follow your dream and try finding what is best for you.
     
  13. gionny

    gionny Bit Poster

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    without job experience is very hard to look for a job everywhere , but don't be worried about this.During your job search keep studying and getting certifications , they result ever useful.
    Excuseme Ophelia an off-topic question , I have booked an holiday in ATENE for April , is the situation safe overthere now for tourists ? I listened on TV there are events against Government cuts..
     
    Certifications: CCNA , CCNP , CCIP
    WIP: CCNA Voice , JNCIA , CCIE R&S
  14. Ophelia

    Ophelia New Member

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    Yes you are going to be ok. But, if you hear on the tv about protests then just avoid the town center (ie. Omonia, Syntagma). I am sure you are going to have a nice time. Visit Acropolis, Plaka, Monastiraki, The Acropolis Museum, The temple of the Olympian Zeus, and also if you like coffee with the best view visit the Ζeppelin Cafe (if you are comming with your partner ;) ). I am thinking of visiting italy too.. sometime.
     
  15. gionny

    gionny Bit Poster

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    thank you a lot , I will follow your advice..listen but do you think it's worth renting a car and go to Sparta ? are there things to see?
     
    Certifications: CCNA , CCNP , CCIP
    WIP: CCNA Voice , JNCIA , CCIE R&S
  16. Ophelia

    Ophelia New Member

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    Are you a fanatic of 300? "This is Sparta" :P :P Well Sparta is ok but it is a small town that does not have a lot of things to do. I know this because a friend of mine was studying there. You are thinking of visiting the country side? There is a very pretty village called Makrinitsa in Pelion. It is a very quiet and traditional village. see here some photos: ÌÁÊÑÕÍÉÔÓÁ. Also meteora is good but pelion, sparta and meteora are a bit far from Athens. Google those places and ask me anything you want. Send me a pm because we are offtopic:P
     

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