Microsoft updating files without telling computer owners

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by ffreeloader, Sep 14, 2007.

  1. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Well... that's the job of a moderator... that's why they're here. :)
     
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  2. drum_dude

    drum_dude Gigabyte Poster

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    I just think the moderation should be put to good use elsewhere...I like this place but hate seeing the threat of Thread locking just because adults are having a heated but good debate where people like myself who are ignorant of stuff like Linux and MS practices can learn a lot!

    Freddy, it's not something personal against Trip - it's just the strategy I disagree with.
     
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  3. tripwire45
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    tripwire45 Zettabyte Poster

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    Well...I have to earn my keep somehow. :rolleyes: :biggrin

    "Productive" might have been a poor choice of words on my part. There are plenty of "social" threads here that are fun, harmless, and not particularly productive. That said, while we are all adults and can take care of ourselves, one of the jobs of a moderator is to try to head off any discussion that may be headed in the direction of a "flamefest". My comments were only made to suggest that people stop and consider before posting remarks that may be based more on emotion than on the facts related to the topic.

    As Freddy said, my comments weren't directed at any particular individual and there was no suggestion that I would take any action except to lock the thread if things got out of hand. I never even said I thought they were out of hand.

    Thinking and re-reading content before actually posting it to the boards is good advice for anyone, me included.
     
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  4. drum_dude

    drum_dude Gigabyte Poster

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    me too...thought I'd make an example out of myself!
     
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  5. tripwire45
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  6. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    Moderation takes place to ensure that these forums dont turn into flame wars, amongst other things. In that light, if this thread was deemed to have degenerated into just slagging each other off, the mods would be well within their rights to lock it.

    To be perfectly honest though, this is a private website, and the mods are staff members of this website. Whilst you may think its draconian, they can lock (and even delete threads) on NO basis whatsoever. Think of it like a shop. Shop staff have the right to refuse you business whenever they want to, and they dont even have to justify it. they just can!

    Now, back to topic.

    I do believe the EULA states (and always has done) that you do not own your copy of Windows. You license it. That is true of all versions of windows. In that regard, since you dont OWN the operating system or its files, MS pretty much has free reign to change whatever it pleases on it. To my mind, the fact that its licensed and they inform you of any changes (hell, they even allow you to choose to accept the changes) is probably, when you get right down to it, more out of courtesy than requirement.

    Now I cant say I agree with the practice and, if nothing else, its going to be a PR nightmare.

    As for being afraid of Linux. No not really. Whilst I can barely use it (and I have a VM running Ubuntu on my machine right now), it simply doesnt do what I need it to do (specifically, play my games). I dont want to have to piss around firing up something like WINE, THEN fire up the game in question (and WINE isnt perfect, so theres a chance (however slim) that it wont work). I want it to be easy.

    And therein lies the crux. MS will be the dominant market force for end-user machines for a long time to come. You will note I said end-user - so im not including servers, etc in this. This is simply because people want what they are familiar with. Businesses dont want to spend thousands of pounds training their staff how to do things in Linux when they can use a platform people are (for the most part) capable of operating. Similarly, most business level applications are written for Windows and, particularly the market leading apps, dont have suitable linux counterparts (not to mention that most people in a specific role (ie accountant) will be proficient in the MS application, but unlikely to be for any Linux version - thus incurring MORE money to train them up). Then you have the installation issues with Linux which can still be a pain in the hoop.

    On the back end side, Linux has a better chance. Its virtually invisible to the end-user, so the only people you need to train are the techs (at an average of 1.9% of the total UK staff in my last company, that significantly reduces the cost of training), and to the user it makes no difference.

    A lot of Linux fans like to harp on about how Linux is free. Yay to Linux. All hail the free OS. Absolute utter crap. Linux is NOT free. Yes the actual install is (possibly) free, depending on how you source it, and the version you get, but that doesnt equate to free. You have to look at the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO). So if I have to spend £10,000 to retrain all my staff in how to use Linux and the requisite applications, then Linux just cost me 10k. It doesnt stop there though, A company switching to a totally new platform is likely to buy support from the company that made it, so theres another cost.

    But what about man-hours? Say I've just switched my entire (10k user) staff onto Red Hat, migrated all our applications over to the linux counterparts. Now, for most of these 10K users (say 9500 of them) Linux is totally new to them, and in fact they havent even seen the applications relevant to their jobs before on this platform. Even with training courses it will take time for these people to do even the day to day tasks they do. So lets say that for the first six months it takes all those 9500 users twice as long to do anything (assume that after six months they have it sussed). Suddenly my company is half as productive as it was before. Thats going to eat into my profits and needs to be factored as part of the TCO (A job that takes an hour at £5 an hour suddenly just started costing me £10). Thats a fair amount of money.

    Im sorry, but until the switchover from MS to Linux for companies is seamless (and I mean seamless) its just not going to happen on a large scale.

    Of course, applications are more and more being developed as web applications these days, as opposed to client apps. Web apps can be used on pretty much any platform since all the work is done server-side (sure the server may have to be MS, or a specific type of OS, but the clients dont). So maybe we'll find that as this increases, companies switch more and more over to Linux. In my last job, we could have probably jumped all the servicedesk systems to Linux, since we used a webapp for call logging. Linux PCs can still be joined to windows domains (Pain in the hoop to set it up mind), and im pretty sure we could even still access AD successfully. All that would have left would have been remote access, which could have been VNC. So you see, it can depend on the situation I suppose.

    Have I just argued both sides of the fence?
     
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  7. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    And to be honest, that's the way it's always been. You don't own the software after you buy it... you own the right to USE the software... in whatever form THEY choose to give it to you.

    Obviously, if this is something that a person can't live with, they're free to go with other options. But most commercial software are sold/licensed in this way, so your options become quite limited. Linux would be a good option in this case.

    Yep, that's the overriding reason why I don't use Linux at home. Until Linux gives me a game or app that I MUST have that I can't get on Windows, I have no reason to switch.

    I absolutely agree with the remainder of your post. Very well stated!
     
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  8. wizard

    wizard Petabyte Poster

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    Well I'm installing Linux on the next PC I build 8)
     
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  9. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    Fergal,

    I will just comment on two portions of your post.

    First, the best part of Linux being free, is not the cost. It's free as in speech. You can modify anything you want to. You have access to EVERYTHING, and what you can modify is only limited by your skills, or desire to learn. Linux is very democratic in that it doesn't discriminate against speech, or against any class. I find that the most appealing aspect of all of Linux.

    Second, the TCO that you are speaking of you seem to have mixed up into two areas, and they are not the same. First, say a company was currently using Linux and wanted to move to MS technology. What do you think the costs would be associated with that? You would have all the licensing costs, plus the cost of training Linux/Unix admins on Windows. Compared to going from MS to Linux, TCO would be higher for Windows than for Linux, in this aspect of TCO.

    The other aspect of TCO is the ongoing costs associated with both OS's. Here again, Linux shines.

    1. It's just as possible to roll out Linux remotely as it is Windows. So, cost advantage neutral.

    2. Cost of licensing. A clear plus for Linux. There are no licensing costs for Linux.

    3. Paid support from manufacturers. Probably close to a wash, but from what I've seen RedHat and SuSe are more reasonable in their contract support pricing than MS.

    4. Productivity software. Compare the price of Open Office to that of Office. Clear advantage to Linux. Same with email clients, content management systems, mail servers, etc...

    5. Cost of being locked into proprietary formats? That's pretty hard to say, but it can be very expensive, that's why so many governments have come out in favor of ODF.

    6. Cost of training technical staff. Here Windows wins because Windows admins do not need to be nearly as highly skilled as Linux techs. But, there is also a payback on the Linux side, in that highly skilled admins make fewer mistakes and will rarely configure anything insecurely because security is very much part of the mind set for most Linux admins.

    7. What's the cost of cleaning of system compromises through viruses, worms, malware, etc...? Again, Linux clearly wins. It wins again in this area simply because you don't need to run all that "protection" software in the background and use up system resources so time, money(for software), and system resources are saved..

    I really do not understand how people consider Linux to be more expensive to run. It just isn't, and any objective look at the facts shows it.
     
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  10. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    You can begin playing with it long before you install it. Just download a Live CD .iso image from one of many distributions(Ubuntu, Mint Linux, and Knoppix are three that I can think of off the top of my head), burn the file to a cd as an iso image, and just stick it into your cdrom tray, reboot, and you'll be running Linux on your desktop without even installing it.

    When you want to go back to Windows, use the built in shutdown routines and the system will shut down properly, and then prompt you to remove the cd. Then just boot back into Windows.
     
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  11. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    Actually no, Freddy. TCO is the "Total cost of ownership throughout its life" or,

    Or, as Comptia seems to put it:

    (Although That comes up Here and lists the Comptia URL, it doesnt actually load when clicked. I think it must be a members area of some sort)

    So you see, TCO includes the initial purchase costs/training costs/ and maintenance/licensing/etc.
     
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  12. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    Incidentally, in my mind, This article I recently read by joel Spolsky highlights, what I think is the major issue holding Linux back from mainstream. Its specifically regarding the programming side of it, but I think that extends out to the end user side too.

    I think the problem here lies in that, for the majority of us, we recognise that different situations require different solutions. For the most part, in the end user world, MS wins. Its known, its easy to master (easier than Linux, although this is getting less so), and all the common applications that people want work on it.

    In my mind, a change in the mainstream will begin with the business market moving more to Linux (or even just 50/50ish). Once that happens, Linux will begin to take more of the home market.

    Like I said, come talk to me when Linux can just run the apps I want my machine to run, without having to pi$$ around with anything, or complicated installs, or having to install it via WINE or some such. Then, and only then, will I give serious thought to ditching MS as my primary OS. And I'm sure you will find that most people feel the same.

    Of course, its Chicken and Egg really. Big companies wont develop for Linux until its financially feasible. But it wont be financially feasable until lots of people use it as a primary OS, which in turn wont happen until those apps work.

    Coincidentally I recently read another of Joels articles on this matter (Here). What Can I say, I got his book with all these articles in it.
     
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  13. zebulebu

    zebulebu Terabyte Poster

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    I'm not going to get into a slanging match about this.

    Firstly, I don't really care what Microsoft is doing to my copies of Windows. They're all absolutely legit, and I disable Windows Update completely anyway.

    Secondly, I'm not in the slightest bit 'afraid' (sic) of Linux. I use it all the time when pen testing. its just that I prefer Windows. I find it easier to use, more intuitive and I would rather configure (for instance) my Directory Services through an interface that is simple and consistent. Samba is NOT what I am looking for - and I don't think that having to learn a shitload of shell commands is best use of my time.

    Thirdly - and this has been touched on here earlier in this thread - I don't really like playing Tetris or Pong, so I think I'll stick to Windoze for those times when I DO play games on my PC. OpenOffice is utter, utter shite compared to MS Office, so there's no way I'd switch even if Linux had decent game support.

    I don't fall into either camp - I think both MS and Linux have their uses. I would never dream of doing any serious pen-testing using NeWT - by the same rationale, I wouldn't dream of asking my wife to use Linux instead of Windows. The simple facts of the matter for me are that I couldn't give a toss about the 'dark side vs light side' argument that seems to be so all-pervasive when discussing this subject. No matter what people might say about it, when configured properly, windows works perfectly well.

    On the security side, I have never had a virus, never been affected by a worm and don't have thousands of trojans/malware/scumware on my network - so bang goes the 'Windows is more insecure' argument that's also often trotted out.

    Examining this objectively is hopeless anyway. Most people when getting into this argument end up getting entrenched in their views. I do find it amusing though that its usually the Linux advocates who are most bile-filled when it comes to hurling invective. I liken most of them to the sort of people who write to Richard Branson when a Virgin flight is delayed by five minutes.

    Personally, I don;t side with linux, I don't side with MS and I don't sit on the fence. There IS no argument worth making as far as I'm concerned - I simply don't care!
     
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  14. Fergal1982

    Fergal1982 Petabyte Poster

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    Good points Zeb. I've seen your point in the advocates too all over the shop.

    Slightly OT but....well... whats pen-testing?
     
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  15. onoski

    onoski Terabyte Poster

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    I have been following and reading the replies to this thread throughout the day and must say am amazed at the time some people have in terms of the replies.

    To be honest liking one OS over the other should be a preference and not an advocate of someone's smart clued up opinion. At the end of the day whatever rocks your boat and puts food on the table can't be too bad after all so go figure. Cheerio guys and remember no one gets paid for advocating Linux or MS OS over the other so keep it cool and let peace be.
     
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  16. Bluerinse
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    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

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    <puts moderators hat on - hmm the hat looks silly, so takes it off again>

    Good points made here guys!

    For the record, i agree with Freddy regarding Microsoft forcing updates on users when auto updates is turned off, simply isn't playing the game. It is taking control away from system admins, which in my book is just plain wrong.
     
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  17. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Penetration testing.
     
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  18. Mitzs
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    Mitzs Ducktape Goddess

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    Jon I think they actually do retain the ownership of their software. We more of less just lease it. I know I read this somewhere but I could not tell you if it was ms or an article. However, I would like to see them try and repo mine.:twisted: 8)
     
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  19. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    Uh, but my house is still mine, right?

    :biggrin
     
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  20. drum_dude

    drum_dude Gigabyte Poster

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    If Karl Marx was alive today I reckon Linux would be his choice of OS...

    Just a thought...sorry for going off topic!
     
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