Microsoft goes after cheaters hard, and catches smart students

Discussion in 'General Microsoft Certifications' started by Chopperchand, Oct 3, 2008.

  1. dmarsh
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    dmarsh Petabyte Poster

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    Why keep reiterating Microsofts marketing viewpoint if you have no idea what it means or what their agenda is in expressing it ?

    Isn't that what a statistical approach is ? If a white american robbed me statistically its probably you no ? You call that evidence ?

    Why not fix the problem at the source by making exams that are virtually impossible to cheat at like most other establishments ? Why try to use a sieve as a bucket, why not use a bucket ? Whats the point of bolting the gate after the horse has bolted ? Surely they should stop the exams being compromised in the first place. Read the posted link and the comments, they will now decertify people for life but suspect test centres get let off after 3 years ? What sort of message is that sending to the corrupt test centres in India and China ? How is that sending a consistent message that cheating is wrong ?

    One guy mentions the hundreds of thousands of tests taken in Brazil and how they've 'grown the market', and you say they make no profit ?

    Why don't you open your mind to the fact that there may be a better solution than a random phone call in the middle of the night ?
     
  2. Gomjaba

    Gomjaba Bit Poster

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    My point exactly .. I passed most of my exams with over 90% and I am sure that it is easy to assume I am a cheater .. I even finished one exam in about 30 minutes and I swear on my mothers life that I never even touched a braindump ...

    BUT BUT BUT : the so called "save" preps are indeed VERY close but BosonMichael make the correct point : You can only ask a question in a specific way ...

    And as I said before : I do use study guides / prep software simply because I need those certs for my current employer but I am not working with specific topics on day 2 day basis .. And unfortunately you only realise that some questions were too close once you sat at the exam ..

    You could argue "Don't use it them" - but then the only way to pass exams would be to become a professional in every single part of ie Windows 2008 - surely nice .. but not realistic ...
     
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  3. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    After hearing about how you got into IT by lying on your resume, you ought to be caught. :rolleyes:

    WHEN that happens, THEN get concerned.

    Then your understanding is flawed, and you didn't take the time to read the linked article.

    Part 1 is not usually "just a waste of time" and cannot "mostly be skipped". You have to read through the scenario to dig out the important bits. They're in there... but you can't just skip everything - you DO actually have to read it.

    If I'm Microsoft, and I'm concerned, that's easy enough to figure out.

    Read carefully. I didn't say you WON'T get the same questions... I said you're NOT LIKELY TO get the same questions.

    Per the confidentiality agreement you signed when you took the exam, you can't even talk about it afterwards, even with people who have taken the exam already. Or did you not read the agreement you signed?

    You're part of the problem, if this is how you approach certification.
     
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  4. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Guys, guys... READ the article. It's not just "down to timings". :rolleyes:

    I don't speak for PrepLogic - I've never worked for them. However, as far as I'm aware, they do NOT get "very close" to the real exam. They can't, or Microsoft would burn them, I can promise you that.

    Why are you guys so worried when *nobody* who is innocent has been found guilty of cheating??? :blink Obviously the guy in the article had nothing to fear... :rolleyes:
     
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  5. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Because you are questioning why Microsoft dropped C++. That's the reason why: their marketing viewpoint. Then you go off on a three-paragraph rant. That's why I suggested that you complain to Microsoft if you disagree. I was simply answering your question.

    It likely is if I'm the only white American in the area.

    I dunno, why don't you ask them?

    That said, I know I wouldn't want to take an exam at one designated time a year. If that were the case, I'd likely not bother certifying.

    Yes, they SHOULD stop the exams being compromised. They're making efforts, but it's pitifully slow, as the braindumpers are in countries that are out of the legal reach of Microsoft.

    No, suspect test centers AREN'T automagically let off after 3 years... those that are compromised are no longer allowed to offer exams. Unfortunately, it is ridiculously easy to become a test center... and THAT needs to be fixed!

    You really have no idea how much it costs to run a certification program, do you? :)

    Why don't you open your mind up to the fact that maybe, possibly, perhaps someone who works in the IT certification testing industry knows a bit more about testing methods than you? You're just itching for an e-fight is all you're doing. :rolleyes:

    A bit melodramatic with the "middle of the night" comment, don't you think?
     
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  6. Gomjaba

    Gomjaba Bit Poster

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    Will we ever find out ? Don't think so.

    Let's assume I get my exam revoked because of cheating and I tell you I didn't.
    I am sure because of my CV story you wouldn't believe me no matter what.

    I admire your believe in "the system" - but every system is flawed .. whether you want to believe it or not.

    *sigh* ...

    I think the problem is that "we" (you do obviously) don't believe that there is a 100% perfect method to catch a cheater .. that's all ... Even today people getting imprisoned innocent ..

    Yes yes, its the minority - people are still afraid it could happen - nothing you say will ever change that.

    Want another OT example ? Very long story short : Bought a brand new car .. burned down within three days .. insurance assumed I burned it down myself (yapp)
    ..
    First instance of court said insurance is right (ignoring several expert reports that it was a technical fault), second instance finally accepted the expert reports (is it even the right name - dunno) and 6 years later I finally got my right (and lost further 10 grand in the process).

    Nobody is perfect, neither is Microsoft and its "one in a trillion false positive" method.
     
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  7. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Actually I said quite the opposite: although there are only so many ways of asking a question, you DON'T have to be "very close" to the exam to ask a relevant question.
     
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  8. BosonMichael
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    Every system is flawed. But it would be absurd to throw out the system before any flaws have been found. Why throw out the baby with the bathwater?

    Hey, I'm not the one breaking their confidentiality rules. If you don't like them, complain to Microsoft. But whether you realize it or not, you're compromising the integrity of the certification program if you talk amongst your friends to find out what questions you guys got.

    Where did I say that there is a 100% perfect method to catch a cheater? I don't believe there is one. In fact, I doubt if this method will catch 10% of the cheaters. That said, I'd rather give this plan a chance in the hopes that it will catch even SOME of the cheaters.

    Hey, if you guys want to stay scared, be my guest. I'm just saying that it's not logical to do so, if you truly know your stuff. Do what you will; I'm just here to provide advice that you can freely accept or reject. Doesn't hurt me one way or the other.

    Actually, that's a bad example - a logical insurance company shouldn't assume you burned it down yourself after having it for three days. After all, you haven't used the car much, you're not behind on payments, and you're not going to get more from insurance than you paid for the car.

    Now, if you've had the car for a year, and you're behind on payments, and you lost your job, THEN your car burns down, then they might suspect (not assume, not convict, but suspect) you of burning your car down yourself. If they then perform additional analysis of the wreckage and discover detect traces of kerosene... THEN they will assume you burned it down yourself.

    THAT is statistical analysis.
     
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  9. Gomjaba

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    .... did I mention it was paid cash ... I know it was a bad example ... I just have problems sometimes to explain what i mean without people misunderstanding me (must be a language thing) and therefore prefer to use RL examples ..

    And you are right, we should give them a chance ... As I said before - the only reason why I get upset with their new way of catching cheater is simply .. and I quote again .. that people get banned solely on statistical findings .. there is a German saying .. not sure if I translate it correctly and not sure if it makes sense in this context .. It goes something like

    "Don't believe a statistic you haven't forged yourself"

    Probably translates rubbish ...:blink
     
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  10. dmarsh
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    dmarsh Petabyte Poster

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  11. Gomjaba

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    *waits for BosonMichael* :P
     
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  12. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Keep waiting; you guys are obviously gonna believe what you want to believe despite logic.

    Be sure to pick up your tinfoil hats at the door.
     
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  13. Gomjaba

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    :rolleyes:
     
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  14. Jay_7

    Jay_7 Nibble Poster

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    Presumably the only reason anyone would have to worry about receiving one of those phonecalls from Microsoft would be if they didn't know their stuff?
     
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  15. michael78

    michael78 Terabyte Poster

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    I think this is a very bad step and very dangerous. For every 100 cheaters they may catch there maybe 1 person caught up in the net that didn't cheat. What if someone guesses an answer does that count towards cheating. This basically says your guilty until you prove otherwise which is wrong. At the end of the day cheaters will be caught when doing a job in IT and will loose their job which is worse. For me exams should be simulation based and even though these can probably be braindumped it maybe harder to do so.
     
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  16. Gomjaba

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    Yepp - thats why I am looking forward to work for the RHCE - purely performance based :p
     
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  17. dpbarry

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    I'm probably going to get burned asking this.

    I don't advocate someone using cheat sheets in order to obtain a particular qualification BUT, if the cheat sheet is used to suppliment studying or explain reasoning to a particular answer would you use them??

    I know a couple of guys who have used cheat sheets to obtain particular qualifications without any studying and it peeved me off because they come to me to ask how to do mandatory tasks. Its these sort of people that get genuine people who do all the studying a bad name.

    Declan
     
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  18. Qs

    Qs Semi-Honorary Member Gold Member

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    No. Cheating is cheating - nuff said. As you said yourself


    I know a couple of guys who have used cheat sheets to obtain particular qualifications without any studying and it peeved me off because they come to me to ask how to do mandatory tasks
    .

    By using such sheets it means that they're not able to do certain tasks and this is exactly what potential employers look for - your ability to perform the tasks listed in your contract. It's what you get paid for!

    It'll cost you jobs and you will struggle, plus there's the possibility that you'll get de-certified for life and then all your potential job prospects go down the swanny...

    Qs
     
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  19. michael78

    michael78 Terabyte Poster

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    That sums up why Microsoft's direction is so dangerous as legit people will get caught up and accused of cheating possibly have certs taken off them and ruin their careers for life. People are different and some brighter than others so can't see how they can tell from the speed you complete the exam to the time it takes you to answer a question. Anyone with half a brain will just take longer to complete the test and exam questions if they are cheating.

    Next we will all be interrogated with electric shocks by a MS flunky if it continues down this path. I don't like cheaters but they are almost certain to be found out when doing an IT job as it's one of those professions you can't really muddle your way through without being found out.
     
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  20. Matthew Tailor

    Matthew Tailor Banned

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    Sadly, braindumps plague the net and bring down the validity of the Microsoft certification path. There will always be people that cheat to get ahead, just watch a chelsea game and you'll see! :)

    Microsoft should consider alternating the testing strategy and do away with multiple choice questions. A simulation test would be a far better testing method and would show that the person understands the product/area more.
     
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