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MCSE in 2 weeks!

Discussion in 'The Lounge - Off Topic' started by Sparky, Nov 16, 2007.

  1. Sparky
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    No I haven’t lost the plot!

    But seriously....

    I have been looking at various different ways to getting the MCSE (classroom, self study, etc.) but I still cant get my head around the whole “2 week bootcamp” idea.

    On paper it says, pay £7k and after 2 weeks you will be MCSE certified. WTF?

    I know this is based at IT professionals that have been working in the industry for years but this doesn’t mean they will be fully up to speed with Server 2003 to pass the MCSE in that time period. There are some components in Server 2003 that I have not had to deal with in work but studying for the MCSE has shown me what these components can do. I have 5 years IT experience.

    So, if the 2 week boot camp doesn’t use BDs or any other dodgy materials how does it work? Surely for most of the time you will taking the exams so this isn’t even 2 weeks of studying.

    Anyone? :biggrin
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Exchange 2007\2010
  2. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Ah, there's the rub. ;)
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
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  3. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    Sparky,

    A boot camp is nothing more than 2 weeks, or however long they advertise it for, of braindumping. That's all it is. You sit in a class and an instructor throws material at you extremely fast. They have to cover 5-600 pages a day of books like those Sybex puts out for self-study.

    No one can possibly learn that fast. You can memorize that fast, but you can't learn that fast. That's why a 2 week bootcamp is nothing more than a 2 week long braindump session. They may use legitimate instructional materials, but that's the only difference.
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, A+
    WIP: LPIC 1
  4. Sparky
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    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    LOL!

    Seriously though, are they all corrupt then? Off the record of course! :biggrin
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Exchange 2007\2010
  5. Sparky
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    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    So what exactly do they throw at you? Just key points you will need to know? :blink
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Exchange 2007\2010
  6. Theprof

    Theprof Petabyte Poster Forum Leader

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    I don't know if they are all corrupt but I do know that a lot of them aren't true to their customers. I am sure they know that BD's wont help the student out but they have no other choice in that two week period. Unless you spend at least a few months on the MCSE with somebody who has years of experience in networks.
     
    Certifications: A+ | CCA | CCAA | Network+ | MCDST | MCSA | MCP (270, 271, 272, 290, 291) | MCTS (70-662, 70-663) | MCITP:EMA | VCA-DCV/Cloud/WM | VTSP | VCP5-DT | VCP5-DCV
    WIP: VCAP5-DCA/DCD | EMCCA
  7. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    They're not ALL corrupt... I'm sure that there are some that don't use braindumps.

    Regardless of whether they use braindumps or not... they still can't teach that much information to the point of understanding in two weeks. You can memorize a bunch of information you don't understand in 2 weeks, sure... but LEARN it? No.

    If it were truly that easy to understand all that info in two weeks... anyone could be a network administrator. But... it's not.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  8. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    All they throw at you is the material that's on the tests. If you're an MCSE, and you have any experience at all, you know how inadequate a preparation the MCSE test material alone is for real life situations. They can't teach principles of operation, any kind of troubleshooting, nothing but, here's what's on the test, and then practice test you to death.

    That's been what I've heard from multiple people who have gone to bootcamps. I've never been to one myself. But, I've never considered one from what I've learned about them other people, and having earned an MCSE myself confirms my opinion. There is simply not enough hours available for an instructor to stop and spend time on things that people struggle with such as subnetting, anding, dns, dhcp, wins, AD, etc.... They can't teach basics or slow down. If they do, they will never make it to the end of the material they have to cover.
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, A+
    WIP: LPIC 1
  9. Phoenix
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    Phoenix 53656e696f7220 4d6f64

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    That's complete tosh
    I have been on a few boot camps and they are simply two weeks of hands on hardcore 8 - 8 sort of thing, practice/training/whatever
    there's never been any 'here's a brain dump go memorise' there's never been a 'here's a link to download some pre exam reading material'

    boot camps are however designed for IT literate, competent (perhaps even brilliant) people, not people new to the industry, its just a power course through the bits that (like you already mentioned) you didn't know existed, for the exam and yes, you can learn material in two weeks, it might not all still be there two months later, but then neither is everything i learnt in 10 years of school

    no its not real world experience, its exam preparation but it is still learning its pure exam prep via a hands on approach, and personally i feel there is nothing wrong with it IF your the right candidate for that sort of training.

    I am really getting a bit fed up with all the elitist views of different training methods I'm seeing around here (not aimed solely at you freddy despite me quoting your post), if your not breaking the rules, if your not cheating, and if it works for you, then good for you!
    will every method strive to make you the best tech? no, but that's down to you, a lot of years, and a lot of hard work.
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCITP, VCP
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  10. ffreeloader

    ffreeloader Terabyte Poster

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    Pheonix,

    I have nothing against an experienced person using a bootcamp.

    But, you and I both know bootcamps aren't going to turn away people who have the money but not the experience. In that case it's nothing more than braindumping material. While it may not be, and usually isn't, just test answers, the chance of retaining any significant percentage of the material is between slim and none for the noob that's sold a bootcamp experience.

    I wouldn't really have a problem with bootcamps if they advertised ethically. If they said, "We'll get you your MCSE if you have x number of years experience in such and such environments, but if you don't have the experience don't bother applying because we won't accept your money. You're not ready for us, and we aren't going to rip you off. " then I'd look at them differently.

    When the majority of bootcamps do that, then I'll say bootcamps are OK. Until then, they are no different than braindumping when they take in noobs.
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, A+
    WIP: LPIC 1
  11. BosonMichael
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    BosonMichael Yottabyte Poster

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    Perhaps not in YOUR experience... but I've heard from a TON of people who took boot camps and were given braindumps by their boot camp "instructors" (and I use that term loosely, because there's not much instructing going on). You can't say it "doesn't happen"... because that's simply not true. It does.

    You can "poo pooh" those of us who advocate studying by learning the "slow way", through hands-on practice and understanding, all you want... but the bottom line is this: boot camps that enable unqualified people to pass without gaining a true understanding of the concepts are one of the reasons certifications are devalued as much as they are. It's why employers won't hire based on certification alone... they've been burnt too many times by certified people who didn't know how to perform the tasks in the "real world".

    Like Freddy stated, if boot camps catered ONLY to those who had a requisite amount of experience, then I'd have no problem with them. But there's only one thing that boot camps require of their students... and that's money.
     
    Certifications: CISSP, MCSE+I, MCSE: Security, MCSE: Messaging, MCDST, MCDBA, MCTS, OCP, CCNP, CCDP, CCNA Security, CCNA Voice, CNE, SCSA, Security+, Linux+, Server+, Network+, A+
    WIP: Just about everything!
  12. Phoenix
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    Phoenix 53656e696f7220 4d6f64

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    Well put freddy, and it that context I suppose you could consider it a form of 'brain dumping' so to speak, although those without the ability are very unlikely to pass at the end of the day as there is still an element of actually understanding things in order to put them into test question contexts

    I know what you mean about 'x years of experience' but lets be fair, not only would the trainer have to be that ethical, the attendees would need to be too, I know more than a few that would just be like 'nah i want it in 2 weeks, i will manage' in which case it doesn't matter how ethical the trainer is, unless there checking CVs and getting references lol

    .


    Mike
    The type of course does not dictate the dishing out of braindumps, the ethics of the instructor do
    I've been on full 10 day courses for a single subject that have had them thrown around, and I've been on 2 week boot camps without them

    the level of course does not dictate what sort of instructor you get, or if the training provider it self has those kind of practices in place

    no one is 'poo pooing' the slow way, i use it myself plenty. I'm simply saying its not the only way, and in an industry as fast movign as this, taking 2 years to self study for an MCSE is not always feasable, logical, or practical for everyone

    and most training providers only require money Mike, bootcamp or not,
    and as for people who hire for certification alone, thats there own damn problem, a cert != skill, anyone can pass a multiple choice quiz with 50 questions, that doesnt mean they can do the job, and thats true for those who spend a year studying, or a week, at the end of the day if your just studying for a test then thats all your going to come away with the skills for, passing a damn test
     
    Certifications: MCSE, MCITP, VCP
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  13. wizard

    wizard Petabyte Poster

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    I think you would be able to tell the trainees that have BSed their way on to these bootcamps if they did push the "only come on our courses if you have x amount of years" maxim. I'm not a trainer, wouldn't mind being one though, but there are non IT related courses in my old jobs I've been on and those on the courses with me who were alledgedly better paid than me and in a higher position than me clearly didn't have a scooby what was going on.

    Telltale sign of someone out of their depth:

    They're not even making eye contact with the trainer, they're too busy looking at their watch, fidgeting, talking to their mate at the next seat and doodling in their note pads.

    In my book that isn't a sign of boredom because the course they are on is too "easy" it's a sign is they've bitten off more than they can chew.
     
    Certifications: SIA DS Licence
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  14. Sparky
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    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    Interesting feedback.

    I’m just curious to what you get for your £7k? If the training provider doesn’t use BDs then what materials are used? Is it the MS Press book but you just learn the chapter summaries as a reference point? There must be a method to how the material is used, what is to stop someone taking 2 weeks off work and getting the MCSE then? :blink
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
    WIP: Exchange 2007\2010
  15. dmarsh

    dmarsh Terabyte Poster

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    Its just another form of professional training, theres been full time professional IT courses for years, they generally involve 5 days of 8 hours and cost around £500 per day. The bootcamp slant was just an innovative attempt to help busy IT techs get the most bang for their buck by embarking on intensive training rather than the ones where they let you have half the day off for lunch etc.

    Its like anything, its down to you to make sure you get what you want out of It, the bootcamps existed without the certs originally and still do in some forms. Why shouldn't an experienced busy IT Admin have to chance to get training or certs in a short period of time ? Surely what we want is the good experienced people with certs, thereby ensurign the value of certs ? If you just make the cert programs attractive to low earners with lots of free time and no IT experience where does that leave us ?

    Yes they are mis-marketed and yes there are bad companies and instructors, but like anything you have to go into it with your eyes open and do your research. I've met people with degrees that struck me as particulary dense, by your logic arguably they should not have been educated or have passed but despite all the controls on a degree program it still happens. Its no wonder that professional courses based on profit and computer based testing suffer from similar problems.
     
    Certifications: CITP, BSc, HND, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, N+, Sec+, Proj+, Server+, Linux+, MCTS, MCPD, MCSA, MCITP, CCDH
  16. onoski

    onoski Terabyte Poster

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    I agree 110% as you get out what you put into something,not too long ago someone on the forum was making reference how they don't like reading books in prep for an exam.

    I am not knocking this person but it does go to show that there are people who want to attain things without much effort and hard work regardless.

    Over here in most part of the UK an MCSE is used as a tool to get an interview and then the jokers can be weeded out from the practicals who can actual carry out a task in real life terms.
     
    Certifications: MCSE: 2003, MCSA: 2003 Messaging, MCP, HNC BIT, ITIL Fdn V3, SDI Fdn, VCP 4 & VCP 5
    WIP: MCTS:70-236, PowerShell
  17. gunga_jim

    gunga_jim Bit Poster

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    Here's my opinion...

    I've only ever been on one bootcamp and that was KOenig in India. I was a complete noob as people say and decided to leave work and study solid for 5 months solid (6-8 hours everyday). When i was looking for what kind of jobs i wanted i noticed CCIE so i emailed the bootcamp and asked them in their "honest" opinion what were the possibilities of me passing the CCIE written test in a 60 day bootcamp. They wrote back and told me 85%!!!

    It was only after i started studying that i realised how much material was involved for just the CCNA! I postponed the bootcamp every month for 5 months and had to change my course from CCIE to CCNP and then eventually just the CCNA because i realised that there was just NO WAY for me to pass a CCNP in that time period.

    When i got there i also decided to do an additional foundation course - that tutor was CONFUSING (and his accent didn't help). I tried to follow the cisco material, but had additional books and study materials and simulators - i went as prepared as possible. After this initial 4 day foundation, additional materials and 5 months of solid hardcore study i was about to start the 9 day ccna course.

    There was absolutely no way that if i hadn't studied so hard that i could have kept up with the speed that they taught this course. We also happened to have the most renowned teacher in the whole of the company who was a CCIE and never needed to look at a course book, but i still needed to ask the other students to explain it in a way i could understand, do extra hours after class AND study every single night for 8 hours.

    I think that some of the students found some brain-dumps, but i didn't see the point. I didn't go out, i never even got to see the TAJ MAHAL :( i just sat in my room killing lizards and studied. When it came time for the exam i had to postpone again for extra studies ( i just wasn't ready).

    Needless to say, everyone who had previous experience (or used the braindumps) passed - everyone who didn't failed. I was the only noobie who passed and that was through 6 months of full time study and sweating some blood!

    The point i'm trying to make is that if you get a good tutor and have the relative experience, maybe a bootcamp can be useful. If your a complete newbie - MAKE SURE YOU GO PREPARED - or just forget it!!
     
    Certifications: MCP & CCNA
    WIP: CCNP maybe CCVP whilst i'm there...

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