MCSE and Computeach - please help!

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I guess I'm confused by this. What do you mean by "workshops"? Is this some place you can go every day for as many hours as you need to work hands on? Is there a computer network there that you will be allowed to play with, install, configure, and break, in your learning process?

Do they at least provide you with exam specific books from publishers such as Sybex?

Are you allowed as much time as you want/need on the 2003 server? Do they have a lab where you will be able to actually set up Active Directory domains and troubleshoot things that break over the course of time and as a result of misconfigurations? Will you be able to sniff packets to see how the 2003 DC communicates with workstations and other servers? Will you be able to set up things such as Exchange servers or SQL Servers on it? If not how are you going to get hands on configuration experience with them as things like these are a part of getting an MCSE? Are you going to be able to set up things like DFS? It seems rather unlikely as you will only have access to one server. How will you learn to set up and troubleshoot things like replication between domain controllers?

I have a "million" questions as to how you will really get hands on experience. IMO, access to one server will not allow you to really understand things.

 

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Hi Edgar

Welcome to the board. I hope I can shed some light on some of your questions.

In simple terms buying some cheap computer, kit some study manuals, Microsoft Resource Kits and using the Interner to work your way through study manuals and understand the materials.

Yes it can be done just needs lots of hard work.

I can only speak for myself - the only way for you to get a job is for you to do the leg work. Having worked for 20 years I have yet to get a job via an agency! But always have a CV with two or three.

It is hard work but is achieveable. You stand every chance.

Now the bit I don't think you are going to like. About £20,000 would be a good starting salary maybe a bit more in London.

Another thing you need to consider is that a number of companies are "outsourcing" all of their IT function to India and China as labour costs are cheaper.

I hope that does not sound to harsh but realistic. While 5 to 6 years ago there was a good living to be had in IT. IMHO is no longer the case. Looking at the paper where I see adverts for training companies they do quote high salaries but look at the date of the source, usually in very small print, and it is normally 1999 just before the Y2K bubble burst.

Good luck in what ever do do.

 

You don't get access to one server, you spend time at their center where you do exactly the things you have suggested, you can't go in every day, you go there so many times per year, 5 days here; 3 days there etc. With regards to the course materials, don't think they're sybex books, have to get back to you on that one as I haven't started the A+ yet (I'm currently flying through their pointless 'Computing Fundamentals' course).

I'll be able to answer your questions better in around 6 months time

 

Edgar: my experience with CT was far from good. The level of support was one problem. Tutors were almost always elusive and non-existant. I often needed questions answering but when I phoned them there was rarely anyone to take my call. Even when I posted questions on their website it often took days before any answer was forthcoming from a tutor. Nearly always the quicker responses were from other students.

The student support website itself was a source of concern. Apart from a couple of general forums students only had access to their course specific forums, [e.g.] I was doing the A+ at the time so could only log on to that. This meant that any students that had done the A+ and moved on to the MSCA, for instance, could not give me their input, it was mainly from students at my level. Most odd as I would have though people would benefit from the experience of those that have moved onwards and upwards as is the case here.

The 'work' was based on the Sybex A+ book by David Groth. [nearly put Grohl ... Foo Fighters fans would have liked that mistake! ;)] This version of the book contained flash cards and a test on one CD-ROM and a series of short instructional videos on another. I also had access to online NETg modules and a terminology reference book, plus the student support website. The A+ was split into the two halves and to pass you simply had to learn the hardware side from the appropriate section of David Grohl and complete the right NETgs, take a practice paper, send it in and pass [if not, re-read, re-learn and re-sit practice paper], do the same for software side, and then sit a combined practice paper. At this point you would be invited to the CT centre for 3 days of hands-on workshops. THEN sit the A+ exam for real.

All of this was a mare for me. I need the hands-on and need to be able to ask questions. I need to gain experience as I am going along, to assist me make sense of the book, not just at the end of a huge section. I have just spent 2 hours grilling an NITLC rep and am very interested in what they have to offer. OK, it is similar to the CT approach but when I asked about support I was informed that tutors are available online, on the phone and even to meet at their centre 5 1/2 days a week. [I am visiting the centre next Tuesday to be shown around by a tutor ... the rep rang up from my house and organised it there and then]. Also the website has a study buddy system so support from other students is provided in an organised way. They also have contacts with local employers so you can arrange work experience from time to time to complement and augment their book/project based approach. [I like this idea and was ready to organise this kind of experience for myself anyway after having read a post by Weemez on another thread here.]

Is there anyone here that can confirm or deny any of this from their NITLC experience? It may sound 'too good to be true' but anything can be better than the CT 'tutors not available at the moment' or standard 'your work is late; you need to stick to your work schedule date targets; we do not ask why your work is late of offer help to get you back on track' letter approach from CT.

 

Well, you made it sound as if you were able to remotely log into one 2003 server to practice configuring it.

In my opinion, this is hardly enough hands on to really count for much. A person must have daily exposure to systems. That's the only way you can really learn it. A 5 day chunk here and a month or two later another 3 day chunk there is a sure way to forget most of what you learned. It's not quite like starting all over again, but it's going to be a lot like that. It will also not give you enough time on the system for things to break on their own, or from MS patches, or whatever, so that you will learn how to troubleshoot problems and fix things.

It takes days to set up an Active directory domain with multiple DC's, users, OU's, group policies, sites, etc... and see if replication is working. Let alone setting up the different types of replication configurations there are.

What you have is better than just braindumping your way through the exams, but you need very much to set up your own lab at home to work with. What the training company is providing for you is very inadequate. If you want real skills when you finish your training you need a lab at home. It's a must.

 

slightly off topic folks but as labs have been mentioned a few times....? what exactly would be in a lab as in, no. of systems, os's .....etc? and what would i be looking for if i was wanting hands on experience, at home? should say im aiming for a+,N+,mcse, and security +.

 

Rather than take this thread off on a tangent, why don't you start your own thread asking about labs? I think it would be a great idea and it would keep all of the replies focused on that topic. While you're at it, do a search of our site for "lab" or "labs" and see what comes up.

Just to get you started, our esteemed Phoenix posted some lab diagrams here:

http://www.certforums.co.uk/forums/thread3568.html

Enjoy.

 

sorry trip, my bad.

 

Edgar

Have you considered a local college to do some MS courses?. My college runs the MS Academy which is perfect. All the instructors have about 9 years in the IT industry and are MCSE on NT right up to 2003.

If your local college does run MS stuff, make sure the instructors have worked with the products in the real world. If not forget it and do self study.

 

Me too, except I'm 29.....

Me as well, I'm guessing we might well have seen the same 'advisor'.. I'm also thinking about the commitment to take on the MCSE with them.

I think for me that the route of a training provider is a smart idea if only that the outlay to them might well act as a stick to keep me motivated! I've no 'official' back ground in IT, although I did build the office computer network and provide support to the users in our small company. That is to say that they shout for me when something goes wrong and I have to figure it out.... !

My concerns are much the same as yours I think, ie provider reputation, end salary possibilities etc. I'm also not 100% sure that it's definately for me so am looking for a 'taster' option before commiting to the big kahuna

 

Thanks to all for such excellent information - this really is the sort of stuff that a beginner like me needs!

If anyone is still interested in the thread then keep it coming!

Again many thanks

 

Hmmmm.... No offense meant by the following, but are you sure IT is the right place for you if you have to be beaten with the big stick of debt to keep you motivated to learn? This field is very hard on people who don't absolutely love what they are doing. You will be working long hours, odd hours, and your entire career will hang on whether you continue to learn because you really love both learning and the job. If you don't, it will be a hard row to hoe. IT is not a career for anyone who thinks that once they get employed their learning is over. It's not. It's just beginning. So, if you're not self-motivated to learn you might just rethink a career in IT.

 

The above post was written so that you could really think about what is to come and if you really don't love learning maybe keep yourself from making a very expensive mistake, not discourage you from choosing IT. I'd hate to have to pay the debt on what the UK training providers charge if I found out that the field just wasn't for me afterall.

 

Hello, certainly no offence taken!

I was (albeit maybe only half) joking when I mentioned the stick of debt as being a motivator.

Right now I'm in a job in a small niche sector manufacturing company. Not really any room now for forward development (been there 5 yrs and am 2nd in charge, Commercial Manager). The job and previous employment has given me a good business grounding though and I'm now looking for something that can take me forwards where I'm in control of where I'm going and hard work can be an end to a reward and progress rather than just the way things are with little gained at the end of it.

I'm not scared at all of hard work effort at work and beyond and enjoy working under pressure (I don't need time; I need a deadline as the quote goes). Working long hours when the work dictates is not much of a problem, indeed this month I'll be pretty much in 3.5 weeks straight on without a day off as we are so busy. I'm just looking for something where there might be a reward for the hard work at the end rather than the 'although you've worked hard, sorry guys it's not been a great year' that you get in manufacturing... Destiny more in your own hands, that kind of thing.

Your comment about continuing to want to learn also interests me. I've always enjoyed pushing and moving forwards in whatever I've done, so again I don't think that's going to be a problem.

I've long been interested in computers, indeed I think now that maybe my fascination as a child (good old Commodore days...) was a lost opportunity. I'm thinking that now maybe is the time to take the plunge. I've some experience in that I've built a wi-fi set-up at home and also built and 'support' our office wired network and internet connection. By no means any kind of expert, but I've enjoyed what I've done....

I like the idea of learning in a 'structure' and although there's a high cost over doing it myself I think that this might well work for me. Especially as I have to work whilst training to keep the billd payed. At the end of the day the format is still going to stand or fall by my efforts.

Much like Edgar rose I'm trying to get a handle on the earning potential (medium to long term) of the certs I'm looking at. I earn pretty good money now, but ultimately am only worth what I earn in this particular job (£35k + comp BMW etc) - I've got where I am in through hard work and application. A job though that certainly has its 'issues'..!! I'm looking to change and am hoping that by developing qualifications I'll get a much wider spectrum of employment/life opportunities. Hell it's IT or train to be a plumber!!!

I'm taking care with the help of the excellent forum and others to take a good long hard look at what I might be letting myself in for. I've picked up a copy of the Myers A+ book as grounding to make sure that the subject is something that's going to hold me...

Anyway, I do think this is something I could be good at and am looking forward to hopefully joining your ranks in the not too distant!!!! I sincerely look forward to continued discussion and advice from yourself and others.

All the best

Perc

 

Perc,

It looks like you certainly have a good handle on things. If you're not afraid of hard work and long hours then you're half way home. And having the curiousity and desire to learn is a very important drive to have in IT. I don't think anyone can succeed in IT without it.

 

I would just like to add a little to the good advice that has already been posted here.

It doesn't seem all that long ago, well four years to be precise, that I began my studies for MCSE. I wanted the MCSE for my own reasons, nothing to do with earning more money or making myself more employable. I did it because I wanted to learn more about something which I already had a vast amount of experience in. It was a personal goal, that's all.

I made the mistake of paying $9500AU to a training provider I wish that I found forums such as this prior to parting with my hard earned money. What did I get for my money? Not much in retrospect. For each course I was given the Microsoft MOC. This loose leaf folder contains information on all the topics or should I say most of the topics the related exam covers. The instructors were under strict instruction to stick to the MOC, so they just read to us, like mum used to do with Winnie The Pooh. They would answer questions but to be honest, when you are sitting there for hours listening to someone read to you about variable length subnet masks or whatever there aren't that many questions that pop into your head. You also do not want to hold the class up as there is so much to cover. This is the reality.

The labs were useless. A class of 10 or so people, everyone with a different task. 3 people hovering over one terminal. You can't see what the others are doing and only experience what you can do yourself, which isn't much. You can learn far more from building your own home lab and supplementing that with some virtual machine software.

The MOC or any other resource does NOT cover everything you need to know to pass the exam, it only skims the surface. So in reality you find yourself *self studying* on technet, Google, etc. Once you realise that you have paid to be taught but you are now teaching yourself, you wonder why you paid in the first place.

IT is all about self study, I do it all the time. There is no end to self study once you are in this game. You absolutely must push and try and keep up with the technology and it moves faster than most people can learn.

I would always recommend self study, just take it one step at a time. There is a lot to learn and I know people that have not finished their MCSE. They paid up front and dropped out because they found the tough regime was not for them. Money in the bin unfortunately.

We are not salesman here, so we don't make the training providers sound wonderful. I won't criticise any particular one because I believe they are all much of a muchness. They may provide some initial incentive but once the honeymoon is over you will wonder why you used them too

Oh and I didn't mention that my training provider went out of business half way through my MCSE and so all tuition came to an abrupt end. They did eventually reluctantly pay for my exams though. Did it stop me, hell no, here I sit with my MCSE card in my wallet!

You can do it on your own!!

Pete