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Just IT - The Defense

Discussion in 'Training & Development' started by SimonD, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. SimonD

    SimonD Terabyte Poster Moderator

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    Guys,

    I have been in discussion with Simon from Just IT and he has requested the chance to come back here and offer his side of things about his company and what they offer that makes them different from other training providers.

    I have offered Simon the opportunity to do just that, to give his side of things and to make things right.

    I want this to be kept civil so anything out of order will be deleted so be warned.

    Over to you Simon.
     
    Certifications: CNA | CNE | CCNA | MCP | MCP+I | MCSE NT4 | MCSA 2003 | Security+ | MCSA:S 2003 | MCSE:S 2003 | MCTS:SCCM 2007 | MCTS:Win 7 | MCITP:EDA7 | MCITP:SA | MCITP:EA | MCTS:Hyper-V | VCP 4 | ITIL v3 Foundation | VCP 5 DCV | VCP 5 Cloud | VCP6 NV | VCP6 DCV | VCAP 5.5 DCA
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  2. dmarsh

    dmarsh Terabyte Poster

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    "Sorry dmarsh but I asked for this to be kept clean.

    Remember that comments made here are open for public consumption and as such could lead to unwanted legal wrangling, something I am sure that the Admins don't want (I certainly don't).

    Keep it clean, the next post that causes me concern will simply be deleted and I will be having words with the Admins about the poster."

    If I can't express my opinions on an internet forum then what use is it ?

    My post was clean, with regard to legal wrangling, my comments related to all 'training companies' that :-

    1. Don't see fit to vet candidates properly or have any real pre-requisites.
    2. Promise 'job guarantee's
    3. Require large loans
    4. Act as recruiters
    5. Encourage use of unethical means to pass tests
    ...

    and all the other largely negative points that various unethical TP's that have been seen to sometimes use and has been debated at length on this forum many times.

    Sentiments peddled from these companies like 'Bob was an idiot, but he took a $$$ loan, braindumped some certs, and look now he's on £40k!' are not helpful.

    In general these companies aren't good for our industry, we need skilled professionals and recognized definitions of achievement.

    For the record I've never used Simons services, so I cannot comment on them, however his company seems to adopt many of the same marketing practices of numerous previous dubious companies. If he truly wishes to be perceived differently then I would have thought he would not adopt these practices and this was all mentioned last time this debate was had.

    http://www.certforums.com/forums/employment-jobs/34792-just-recruitment.html

    While it may seem a nice touch to refund training fees for people who don't get a job, personally I feel its just an area with too bad a past, better to stick to delivering top quality training at a good price, let the candidates and job market deal with the rest.

    I also don't believe in having the same company deal with recruitment and training, there have been a lot of horror stories in this scenario also.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
    Certifications: CITP, BSc, HND, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, N+, Sec+, Proj+, Server+, Linux+, MCTS, MCPD, MCSA, MCITP, CCDH
  3. shadowwebs

    shadowwebs Megabyte Poster Forum Leader

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    I have to be honest, I have not heard of 'Just IT' but I shall be interested to have a read when the posts are made.
     
    Certifications: compTIA A+, Apple Certified Technical Coordinator 10.10 (OS X Yosemite, Server and Support)
  4. SimonD

    SimonD Terabyte Poster Moderator

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    You and I are on the same wave length here and it's something I have said to Simon in the past (as seen on that thread you linked to).

    I don't believe ethically that you should be a training provider as well as a recruitment consultancy because they are two different camps.

    I am going to try and get down to see Simon this week (I am actually on a training course with QA for the first 3 days of the week so I am hoping that I will get to JustIT on Wednesday afternoon).

    My views are still strong on not mixing the whole Recruitment and Training Arms together tho.
     
    Certifications: CNA | CNE | CCNA | MCP | MCP+I | MCSE NT4 | MCSA 2003 | Security+ | MCSA:S 2003 | MCSE:S 2003 | MCTS:SCCM 2007 | MCTS:Win 7 | MCITP:EDA7 | MCITP:SA | MCITP:EA | MCTS:Hyper-V | VCP 4 | ITIL v3 Foundation | VCP 5 DCV | VCP 5 Cloud | VCP6 NV | VCP6 DCV | VCAP 5.5 DCA
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  5. dmarsh

    dmarsh Terabyte Poster

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    The anecdotal evidence I've seen is that the 'job guarantee' schemes just make people who have been mis sold a course and are heavily indebted to a training provider, braindump furiously in an attempt to either get their money back or a job.

    If they successfully brain dump through the exams the training provider then has to either:-

    1. Get them a job
    2. Refund the money
    3. Stall until such time as they can close the business and create a 'phoenix' company.

    Most of which does not do the candidate, or the IT industry any real good.
    We get an IT industry full of 'paper-cert' people with no skills or discipline, or
    with wasted time and effort and still no job.

    So all I can see really happening is the fast tracking of low grade labour into the lower end positions of the IT Industry by recruiters with an incentive to place unskilled people rather than more suitable people who maybe self studied or are graduates.

    There is a natural conflict of interest between a training provider with a guarantee scheme and a recruitment company, and chinese walls do nothing to help.

    Recruitment companies are generally far from the most ethical companies around anyway, they are 100% sales and commission based.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2013
    Certifications: CITP, BSc, HND, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, N+, Sec+, Proj+, Server+, Linux+, MCTS, MCPD, MCSA, MCITP, CCDH
  6. Sparky
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    Lets just see what the guy posts....
     
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  7. Simon Perriton

    Simon Perriton Bit Poster

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    Thanks Simon for opening up this post and thanks for D Marsh in kicking off with his views.

    It is difficult to represent all that I feel and my team stand for on a forum, so I am delighted that Simon is going to come and meet with me (hopefully on Wednesday). I hope that Simon will then be able to give his perspective on what I have done over the last 12 years and I am sure that he will suggest improvements in what we can do going forward. This will be good for Just IT and for future candidates so its good that this is happening.

    [Removed]

    D Marshes comments;

    Don't see fit to vet candidates properly or have any real pre-requisites.

    We vet candidates as well as we can. Certainly it involves a screening of the CV, at least one telephone conversation, at least 2 meetings before they can sign up. We still get it wrong though and roughly 10-15% don’t get the job they expect when they join the programme. This is something we take seriously and try to reduce. Not least because many people are on a pay as you earn or sponsorship programme, so they will not pay the full course fees if they do not get a job.

    Promise 'job guarantee's

    At Just IT its is a money back job guarantee. The candidate has to pass the screening interviews and they then have to pass the exams to be eligible for this so it’s not as easy as it sounds. Most people pass A+1/ A+2 / Win 7 - they study 2008 Server - they then do a 4-8 week work placement. Get a job from this. Then pass the Windows 2008 Server whilst they are working, then come back to study the CCNA when they have at least a years experience

    Require large loans

    We always encourage people to invest as much of the course fees as they can. As this is the best value for money for the programme as the pay as you earn and sponsorship programmes are more expensive in the long term. If someone is a strong candidate then they can take advantage of the ‘sponsorship’ programme where they candidate does not pay for any course fees up front (just the exams) and the course fees are paid in monthly installments when they get a job. I have not seen this model before – its shows we are different and focused on the employment side of things – not just the training side.

    Act as recruiters

    This is where my business model is so different. People buy from Just IT because they want to take advantage of the career support service, the work placement programme and the contacts we have with employers. There are many training companies out there – we are different! The apprenticeship programme we now run is a classic endorsement of the benefit to candidates of combining training with recruitment services.
    However for many candidates a training only option is what they want and that’s fine. Equally some get great support through a forum like this. But if they are looking for a closer partner to help them, then in my mind there is also room for an option that is Just IT. An ethical company that screens people well, and supports them directly into employment with addition services provided in career support (soft skills), work experience and links to employers.

    Encourage use of unethical means to pass tests

    Simon can investigate when he comes.

    Unethical training providers

    We are not perfect! We have more to learn, but we have strived since 2001 to be ethical and have a pretty good reputation in the market. I would encourage people to review any company that is looking to take your hard earned money from you. Talk to candidates past and present, sit in on the training, talk to employers if they are offering some job solution. Look for evidence of success rates. Meet the trainers, not just the owners. Meet the directors and find out about their past etc.

    $40K starting salaries

    About 90% of the starting salaries are £18-22K for entry level IT support and IT development roles that people gain after our programme. Probably a bit higher for the development programme. Most are on £30-40K in London after 3-5 years. We support people through their career in new jobs when we can through Just IT Recruitment

    Let the candidates and the job market deal with the rest.

    I think there is a need out there for people to get into the market through a ‘career solution' - like ours!. If people want training they can get it from many other companies or study it on line. There is nothing wrong with that. But we offer a faster track, more focused approach with a large team behind you. There is nothing wrong with training only solutions. I just know that for many candidates at Just IT they benefit from the career support and employment side. For the people we take on generally it saves them money and is less stressful as it gets them into the market quicker and more effectively than if they had tried by their own. Just remember we are selective about who can join the programme.

    The problems with training companies. D Marsh comments;

    If they successfully brain dump through the exams the training provider then has to either:-

    1. Get them a job
    2. Refund the money
    3. Stall until such time as they can close the business and create a 'phoenix' company.

    My experience at Just IT is that;

    1) The vast majority get a job.
    2) We don’t have to refund money very often as the people who pass the exams get a job!
    3) We are a profitable company, with stable finances, with a number of income streams, employing 60 people and I am here for the long term. This company defines me.

    Fast tracking of low grade labour

    This year we will train about 600 people into IT careers. Graduates (about 35%), career changers (about 15%) and apprenticeships (about 50%). It is a fast track programme as people want to get their career started as quickly as possible. Time is money! The jobs are in the into the entry level roles, but most people soon rise up the IT market.

    I think its great to have passionate people – like D Marsh, Simon D and Myself. We are all trying to help people by encouraging them to do their research. But I truly believe that Just IT (and some others) offer valuable services that help people in their careers in these challenging times.

    Lets see what views Simon has to build on this.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2013
  8. Sparky
    Highly Decorated Member Award

    Sparky Zettabyte Poster Moderator

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    One question.

    If a lad\lass passes all exams and is based in Scotland\North of England do you expect to offer the same £18-22k?
     
    Certifications: MSc MCSE MCSA:M MCSA:S MCITP:EA MCTS(x5) Security+ Network+ A+
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  9. Simon Perriton

    Simon Perriton Bit Poster

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    Its a good question Sparky. The salaries are different around the country and we dont offer a £18-25K money back job guarantee in some areas of the country. Scotland would be different from London. You can see this by going to IT Jobs, Engineering Jobs, Healthcare Jobs. It would be £16-25K. We also dont take people on the programme if they dont have any commercial IT experience (which is 90% of the candidates) unless they are able to do a work placement. Indeed about 3-5% of people need two work placements to build their profile and confidence. These work placements are in London, so people have to think this through from a cost perspective. They typically last 4-6 weeks, but can last longer depending on the persons needs. We are growing out of London over the next 12 months and have recently started to build relationships with employers in Birmingham, so this will mean that people can keep their costs down if they cant afford to come to London.


    With Simon coming by on Wednsday I thought it would be useful to see what other questions people have that Simon and I can talk about when we meet. I will then respond to these questions in bulk on Thursday or Friday. So post away with your questions and I will try and give some thoughtful and balanced answers towards the end of the week.

    Thanks
     
  10. SimonD

    SimonD Terabyte Poster Moderator

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    If people want to PM me with any questions for JustIT please do so. As Simon mentioned I am hoping to go in on Wednesday afternoon to have a sit down and chat not just with Simon but also some of their current intake. I will caveat this by mentioning that I am on a training course with QA for the first 3 days of the week so depending on when we finish on Wednesday will determine if I get to JustIT in time.
     
    Certifications: CNA | CNE | CCNA | MCP | MCP+I | MCSE NT4 | MCSA 2003 | Security+ | MCSA:S 2003 | MCSE:S 2003 | MCTS:SCCM 2007 | MCTS:Win 7 | MCITP:EDA7 | MCITP:SA | MCITP:EA | MCTS:Hyper-V | VCP 4 | ITIL v3 Foundation | VCP 5 DCV | VCP 5 Cloud | VCP6 NV | VCP6 DCV | VCAP 5.5 DCA
    WIP: VCP6-CMA, VCAP-DCD and Linux + (and possibly VCIX-NV).
  11. Coupe2T

    Coupe2T Megabyte Poster

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    Not a question as such, and in my phone so quoting is a pain, but is it not slightly contradictory to sell yourself on finding people jobs as most are on pay as you earn or sponsorship programmes, then a paragraph later state that you encourage all students to invest as much themselves as possible as otherwise it's more expensive!?!

    To me, this looks to mean one of two things. You get people to pay up first, so therefore you're previously mentioned importance to get people on roles to gain your full funds redundant, OR, that your team are not doing very well with getting people paying up front if as you say most are on a PAYE/Sponsorship deal!

    I'd like to see a bit more transparency, give us real figures for number of students, those who paid themselves, those who are on one of your program's and those who have found permanent roles as per your job guarantees!

    Personally I do not believe in Job Guarantees, for the simple reason that no one can ever guarantee someone will need to hire! Unless you are working with other rogue companies who will fire people as and when new ones need to be taken from yourselves!

    I also don't believe in the money back guarantee from companies such as yours, as quite simply put, no one does anything for nothing! Even if you have real issues with any company, you might get a bit back but no company works on a model that is unable to guarantee a profit apart from the fact that they may not get the people through the door, or the sales as such!
     
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  12. dmarsh

    dmarsh Terabyte Poster

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    Coupe2T, they get a double bite of the cherry in the case of pay up front and a placement, so there can be synergies from running both training and recruitment, the question is if the benefits outweigh the risks.

    It can be quite lucrative to place people in a job, and fresh high quality graduates are generally easy to place at the right price.

    I think apprenticeships are a brilliant idea if run well, and maybe many companies are too lazy to do the groundwork of setting up their own in house scheme and JustIT are filling a gap, but I still can't help but feel uneasy after seeing previous companies in this space.

    In a traditional apprenticeship people typically have lower salaries but do not pay for training, how do JustIT's apprenticeships compare ?

    How do you guarantee to find companies the best candidate ? If the best candidate may in fact not be in your training pool ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
    Certifications: CITP, BSc, HND, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, N+, Sec+, Proj+, Server+, Linux+, MCTS, MCPD, MCSA, MCITP, CCDH
  13. SimonD

    SimonD Terabyte Poster Moderator

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    Apologies chaps, I had to cancel this today, feeling rotten so will have to re-schedule.
     
    Certifications: CNA | CNE | CCNA | MCP | MCP+I | MCSE NT4 | MCSA 2003 | Security+ | MCSA:S 2003 | MCSE:S 2003 | MCTS:SCCM 2007 | MCTS:Win 7 | MCITP:EDA7 | MCITP:SA | MCITP:EA | MCTS:Hyper-V | VCP 4 | ITIL v3 Foundation | VCP 5 DCV | VCP 5 Cloud | VCP6 NV | VCP6 DCV | VCAP 5.5 DCA
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  14. 2036789

    2036789 Bit Poster

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    hi simon perriton if someone already has the certs on your programme and just needs help getting a job or placement. how much do you charge for just finding a placement for someone
    i graduated 5 years ago ( long story but never looked for an IT job after graduation) i am self studying a + network + and mictp desktop support tech if i cant find a job after doing these certs how can you help me.
     
  15. Simon Perriton

    Simon Perriton Bit Poster

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    Hi '2036789' At the moment we dont have a price for a placement on its own. Sorry. But I would love to help you if I can! You could send your Cv to simonp@justit.co.uk. Then I will call you and we can talk about your specific situation. I will invite you in to meet me if you are local and I think my team can help you. Everyone is different and I dont know if we can help you at the moment, but I should know more after our conversation. But for me a conversation is important as a first stage. You can then report back on this forum on what you thought of the advice if you want to. It may help others as well as yourself. Thanks for your question. Simon
     
  16. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    The main problem here is that the industry, or at least this particular niche of it, is tarnished.
    So, even if Just IT does everything it promises to do, convincing people is going to be an uphill struggle.

    Look at the reputation of used car salesmen.
    Does that mean you can never find a reputable/honest one?
    But they're used car salesmen, right?

    Estate agents?

    Unfortunately the only real proof of the pudding is in the eating and you can only afford to get it wrong once.

    The other danger is that the law of averages says that the sort of person attracted to the sort of offer that places like Just IT make are going to struggle to find a job no matter how many bits of paper they can wave around. That means no matter how ethical and well-meaning the company, statistically the success rate should be poor.

    I know that's a bit of a generalisation and I apologise if it offends anyone, but 'get a job or your money back' is aimed at the desperate.

    So in summary, I have no idea how good Just IT are, never having used them. But they have placed themselves in a difficult market sector.

    I do however applaud Simon's attempt to be honest and transparent. The cynical amongst us may see this as a blatant act of self-publicity, but on a public forum that has as much chance of going wrong as it does of going right.

    Oh, and hi, guys.
     
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  17. Bluerinse
    Honorary Member

    Bluerinse Exabyte Poster

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    Hi Jonny :)
     
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  18. JonnyMX

    JonnyMX Petabyte Poster

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    Long time!
     
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  19. Gingerdave

    Gingerdave Megabyte Poster

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    The company I work for had our junior placed through Just IT, with him having gone through their training courses.

    He was a high quality candidate who after three years with us is moving on to pastures new.

    I say this only to point out that good candidates can come through this style of company, but going on our current struggle to find a suitable replacement for him it could be that he was the exception to the rule.
     
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  20. rocdamike

    rocdamike Byte Poster Gold Member

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